[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion - Page 48

Punscho · 11/02/07, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Dontmindme

Did you take into account the reduction for channeled casts? I.e. that a boss cannot dodge, block or parry during those, or were the combat logs parsed for those?

I'm asking this because we may be talking differences in semantics. Here's what I mean...

The observed dodge/block/parry is about 6%/6%/12% against bosses that have few casts (like Gruul), I agree with these numbers, but this is based on what I believe to be a 6.5%/6.5%/13% rate where about 10% of the time a typical boss, like Gruul, cannot block, dodge or parry due to channeling various effects (in Gruul's case Shatter). The distinction is important because Expertise will reduce the 6.5%/13% not the 6%. In essence, you will not see a total 0.25% drop per skill (more like 0.22 or 0.23%) against bosses that channel very little.

This theory can explain why Netherspite, for example, has much lower than expected dodge, block and parry rates. This is because he's constantly casting, either opening the portals or breathing at the party. Theoretically, you would see less observed reduction in dodges and parries with Expertise vs. Netherspite than you would vs. Gruul since half the time, he cannot dodge/parry/block. In fact, Netherspite might be a good test for the casting theory. Stack close to the required Expertise and see if Netherspite truly acts like a 72 or if in fact he's a 73 that casts a lot.

This data is from various bosses in Kara/Gruul/SSC and I excluded those who channel alot (Netherspite, Opera except Crone, Aran).

I still have the data of the individual bosses since I tried to get other people to submit data aswell but that didn't catch on (people were only interested in the hit part of weapon skill back then). As I said I've quit raiding and I don't have any interest or even possibility to produce more data but if someone want to have some additional parses (without extra weapon skill) I can provide at least some more numbers. It totalts almost 5000 swings but it's divided aginst 12 or so bosses and five abilities (white, hs, ss, rev, dev).

Actually now when I look the numbers are closer to 6.5/13 but lower block since some bosses had 0 blocks. These numbers also include Magtheridon but we rarely kept him in banished mode for more than 1-2 seconds due to slowpokes so I included those aswell.

White+Yellow
Hit + glance: 65.06%
Hit, block: 4.08%
Crit: 6.41%
Miss: 6.35%
Dodge: 5.19%
Parry: 12.91%
TOTAL: 100.00%

I can also provide crude (and slow) AWK scripts for extracting data from parses.

Doxxa · 11/11/07, 6:26 AM

Just a quick note on topic , maybe it has been already seen. Yesterday when i logged on my rogue to the ptr i've noticed i have 20 expertise with 2/2 WE and im a human rogue.Then i noticed i use a mace and a sword.I get +5 expertise for useing a mace and +5 expertise for useing a sword so again playin a human rogue isnt so bad in pve case

Edit: ImageShack - Hosting :: expertiseoq9.jpg
just a nice pic

Danath · 11/11/07, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Doxxa

Just a quick note on topic , maybe it has been already seen. Yesterday when i logged on my rogue to the ptr i've noticed i have 20 expertise with 2/2 WE and im a human rogue.Then i noticed i use a mace and a sword.I get +5 expertise for useing a mace and +5 expertise for useing a sword so again playin a human rogue isnt so bad in pve case

Edit: ImageShack - Hosting :: expertiseoq9.jpg
just a nice pic

The 10 Human Expertise bonuses should be a bug. Anyway, yes, Human Rogue/Warriors will have an advantage coming 2.3; how much advantage is yet to be seen, we will need proper calculations of this and of the new Weapon Mastery talent in Fury tree.

Timelessrogue · 11/13/07, 4:09 PM

I am a 70 rogue, I've used the skill calculator here:
Weapon Skill

Values:
Weapon skill 378 (+10 from combat expertise and 18 from alar gloves)
DW: Checked
+hit from talents: 5
Target level 73

Results
Miss Rate: 17.7%
Hit Rating Required: 279.12

Seems strange that I only need such low hit with only +28 weapon exp. Am I missing something?

GB

• Aldriana · 11/13/07, 4:29 PM

Well, the first issue is that that's a weapon skill calculator, and as of 2.3 weapon skill no longer exists so that calculator is totally obsolete; you will *always* have 350 weapon skill and, hence, *always* need 28% total hit to never miss - hence, with Precision, hit caps out at 363 hit rating.

The second issue is that Al'ar gloves give Expertise rating, not Expertise; 18 expertise rating is only 4 expertise in practice.

Oldavai · 11/18/07, 7:59 AM

"you will *always* have 350 weapon skill and, hence, *always* need 28% total hit to never miss - hence, with Precision, hit caps out at 363 hit rating."

I am assuming you are referring to rogues in regards to the above statement. What does this mean for DW Warriors? Keeping in mind our own Precision (+3% chance to hit) and the new Weapon Mastery includes -2% chance to dodge by target.

This may have been answered, but to be honest: it's easier for me to see a (as in one) number. How much hit rating do I need to be successful in ZA or KZ as a DW Fury Warrior? I actually don't understand a lot of the mechanics, I apologize if this is out of place.

Headhuntress · 11/18/07, 8:11 AM

Originally Posted by Oldavai

"you will *always* have 350 weapon skill and, hence, *always* need 28% total hit to never miss - hence, with Precision, hit caps out at 363 hit rating."

I am assuming you are referring to rogues in regards to the above statement. What does this mean for DW Warriors? Keeping in mind our own Precision (+3% chance to hit) and the new Weapon Mastery includes -2% chance to dodge by target.

This may have been answered, but to be honest: it's easier for me to see a (as in one) number. How much hit rating do I need to be successful in ZA or KZ as a DW Fury Warrior? I actually don't understand a lot of the mechanics, I apologize if this is out of place.

As DW warrior with 3/3 precision and Weapon Mastery you'll end up with 25% chance to miss and 4.5% chance to get dodged. So you need 25*15.77= 394 Hit Rating and 18*3.9= 71 Expertise rating in order to never fail an attack. Although from what I know for warriors 100 Hit rating is enough(plus precision 3/3), and then you should focus on AP and Crit. I don't know about Expertise, but I assume Expertise, even for a warrior is really important if you can get gear with it.

Ragnaar · 11/20/07, 8:33 PM

Here's a data set of about 35000 hits from five months of Karazhan raiding. I included data from my hits while tanking Attumen, Maiden, Nightbane, and Prince. The bottom section has totals from all four, and the bottom line of that section has a total from all specials.

               Total     Dodge   Dodge %     Parry   Parry %     Block   Block %
Attumen
Auto            1733       111     6.41%       221    12.75%        69     3.98%
Devastate        705        49     6.95%       101    14.33%        30     4.26%
H. Strike        516        32     6.20%        81    15.70%        14     2.71%
Revenge          154         5     3.25%        17    11.04%         4     2.60%
Shield Slam      295        21     7.12%        40    13.56%        15     5.08%

Maiden
Auto            2037       140     6.87%       274    13.45%       104     5.11%
Devastate       1156        77     6.66%       144    12.46%        57     4.93%
H. Strike       1155        67     5.80%       151    13.07%        60     5.19%
Revenge          315        28     8.89%        48    15.24%        12     3.81%
Shield Slam      520        36     6.92%        75    14.42%        25     4.81%

Nightbane
Auto            7566       402     5.31%       947    12.52%       327     4.32%
Devastate       2324       136     5.85%       316    13.60%        96     4.13%
H. Strike       1401        82     5.85%       176    12.56%        68     4.85%
Revenge         1296        82     6.33%       182    14.04%        48     3.70%
Shield Slam     1419        83     5.85%       178    12.54%        65     4.58%

Prince
Auto            4370       246     5.63%       554    12.68%       193     4.42%
Devastate       2223       144     6.48%       297    13.36%       103     4.63%
H. Strike       3378       204     6.04%       463    13.71%       167     4.94%
Revenge         1310        77     5.88%       182    13.89%        64     4.89%
Shield Slam     1345        84     6.25%       161    11.97%        67     4.98%

Total
Auto           15706       899     5.72%      1996    12.71%       693     4.41%
Devastate       6408       406     6.34%       858    13.39%       286     4.46%
H. Strike       6450       385     5.97%       871    13.50%       309     4.79%
Revenge         3075       192     6.24%       429    13.95%       128     4.16%
Shield Slam     3579       224     6.26%       454    12.69%       172     4.81%
Specials       19512      1207     6.19%      2612    13.39%       895     4.59%

memoria · 01/01/08, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Headhuntress

As DW warrior with 3/3 precision and Weapon Mastery you'll end up with 25% chance to miss and 4.5% chance to get dodged. So you need 25*15.77= 394 Hit Rating and 18*3.9= 71 Expertise rating in order to never fail an attack. Although from what I know for warriors 100 Hit rating is enough(plus precision 3/3), and then you should focus on AP and Crit. I don't know about Expertise, but I assume Expertise, even for a warrior is really important if you can get gear with it.

Does this mean that we still can rely on this weaponskill calculator to determine howmuch hit rating contra wpnskill/expertise we'll need to never miss?

Pre 2.3: 1 weapon skill reduces the enemy's chance to dodge, block and parry your hits by 0.04%, and increases your chance to hit and crit by 0.04%.

When taking a peek into this calculator, it determined the first +15wpn skill (After the default 350) is more valuable.
350 wpnskill vs. lvl 73 target with Precision and DW miss rate is 23%, and req. hit rating 362.
As for 365 wpn skill with the same values, miss rate would be 19% and req. hit rating 299.

Can we after 2.3 still rely on this calculator to determine hit rating req? And indirectly replace +15wpn skill with +15expertise?

songster · 01/01/08, 12:33 PM

This is obsolete, +weaponskill no longers exists as a talent or on items. Expertise functions completely differently. This thread needs closing.