Ra

Had a neat bug today in SSC where one of our prot warriors got MC'd and wasn't released or anything on MC. So someone kited the adds away while we went in and killed the warriors. While ws in there I started to attack leotheras and he wasnt immune or anythig just bugged at 99% life refusing to budge.

Point is, theoretically I guess you could have a group go in there and kill 2 adds offtank one and do all the testing you wanted for spell resists, glancing blows etc. I'm not sure how leo is linked with his room but I think we just clear it because we use the whole thing.

 

stampy

Forgive me if this is something that has been discussed and dismissed elsewhere, but I just randomly stumbled onto a post on the EU forums by Crezax:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....geNo=1&sid=1#2

Has this been proven wrong, or did it just fall through the cracks?

(edit)
Ok... sorry for the useless post then.

 

• Aldriana

That's the post alluded to in the first post of this thread. It has since been disproved. See Rogue DPS spreadsheet, posts 800 to 1000 or so for details.

 

XP-Dolphin

Yeah, those numbers do not seem to pan out at all.

 

Teez

This may or may not be pertinent to the discussion, but since 2.1.0 hit live servers, my weapon skill has increased from 353 to 364 on my character sheet.

I previously had +3 mace skill from +13 mace skill rating on my Mallet of the Tides - which got buffed to 14 mace skill rating (+3.55 skill, which should give +4.) In any case, somehow it's either the character pane that bugged out or the game converts the skill rating wrong - but I have +14 weaponskill from one item with skill rating on it, and no weapon mastery. Keep in mind, my Armory is showing 350 weaponskill (no skill increase at all.)

Is there any explanation for this? Also, I guess I'm interested in finding out whether or not other items that give +skill rating have been acting similarily. (the +skill gloves from black temple, Latro's, etc.)

 

Katherine

To my knowledge it is only the Mallet of Tides. And our Tanks are loving it.

 

sp00n

To my knowledge +skill rating is showing as +skill in the character sheet at the moment, but it's only a display bug.
And the armory seems to always show only 350 weapon skill, regardless how much you have. Weapon Expertise doesn't show either.

 

• Aldriana

I'm pretty sure that's a display bug - it's mistakenly adding your weapon skill rating in the character window rather than your weapon skill. But I don't believe you actually gain the benefit of the apparent points - it does what it always did, it just happens to display incorrectly.

 

laforce

Damn post button.

 

laforce

Was this test before 2.1, during latest PTR, or after 2.1 ?

If the test was durint PTR, maybe they fixed if before the launch?

 

Emeraude

Yeah armory doesn't show talented changes, + Hit talents aren't shown either, it's slightly annoying.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CX81UJZ8
For the lurking Phoenix Wright faithful.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.

 

sp00n

 

Natural

XP Dolphin,

Thanks for the log testing. It will help convince me that the Mallet of the Tides is definitely a good upgrade for our tanks.

Also, thanks for Tabi =) She says Hi.

 

Llilyth

Been trying to sift through the Rogue DPS thread to no avail. Does anyone know if there is any general consensus on the effect of weapon skill on level 73 mobs? I found the part where people tested and concluded that 1 weapon skill ~= 0.1% hit vs lvl70 mobs, and that it's hard to test against lvl73 mobs, then the discussion kind of dropped off.

Thanks.

 

• Aldriana

I think at this point rogues are fairly convinced that weapon skill gives .1% hit per point against 73s (or at least, I am - there's now an overwhelming body of evidence indicating that the hit cap is in the right place under that assumption). However, that doesn't reconcile well with the data here, so I'm of the opinion that weapon skill seems to work differently for different classes - or perhaps for different weapon types (i.e. single wield vs double wield). I think we need to get some rogues or warriors or dual-wielding shammies to repeat this experiement with dual-wielding to get some answers for the effect of weapon skill on dual-wielding before we can draw any strong conclusions.

 

sp00n

Last week on the way to Void Reaver one of our tanks was mind controlled by one of the trash packs.
I tried to gouge him to prevent any actions, and... I *missed*.

Now I can already hear "PvP works differently than PvE!", but technically, at least to my knowledge, a mind controlled player (by a PvE mob) acts and counts just like a normal PvE target.
So what happened? I was running at 297 hit rating, 5% talented hit and 10 weapon skill (Screenshot), giving me (297/15.77)+5= 23.83% tohit (without the weapon skill).
I really shouldn't have missed that one.

I asked the tank how much defense he had, his answer was "currently 511". So, let's see, if a mind controlled player counts just like a normal PvE target, these 511 defense would mean 511-350/5= 32.2 "levels" above me (or a level 102 mob).
Now, level 73 are currently believed to have 25.5% chance to be missed, which is 1.5% more than a level 70 mob, or 0.5% per level. Which means, because level 73 are also believed to have 365 defense, 0.1% per point of defense. And what a coincidence, weapon skill is also believed to grant 0.1% tohit against level 73 targets (308 hit rating seems to be the sweet spot - for rogues at least - to never miss against a boss mob with a skilled weapon expertise: 308 hit rating/15.77 = 19.53% + 5% talent = 24.53 + 10 weapon skill * 0.1 = 25.53%).

So let's see what happens if we consider these 511-350= 161 defense points with 0.1% chance to be missed each.
0.1 * (161 def -10 skill) = 15.1% chance to be missed. Doesn't really play well with my 23.83% tohit.
Remember it was a special attack and therefore yellow damage, which doesn't suffer from the dual wield penalty.

So unless mind controlled players really *do* have a different mechanic, I'm going to speculate a bit now.
- We know that level and therefore defense has an impact on the miss chance. We also know that weapon skill does have some sort of impact.
- We know that special attacks have a different mechanic than white attacks. They are based on a two-roll system and, against a mob 3 levels above you, the miss rate is considered 8.6% (we know that it was above 8% since before TBC: Screenshot).

So, what if defense has a different impact on yellow damage than on white damage?

Let's see, 8.6% miss chance against +3 levels, that is 3.6% more than agains an even level, or 1.2% per level, or 0.24% per point of defense.
Our tank was running with +161 defense, which translates into 161*0.24= 38.64% chance to be missed if regarded as a PvE target under the above assumptions. 38.64-23.83 = a 14.81% chance that I miss him with a special attack. And I did miss indeed.

If we follow this road, the statement of a European CM comes to mind, regarding weapon skill:



Seems wrong? It is. But does it seem somehow familiar now? Hell yes.

He states that 4 weapon skill decreases your chance to be missed by 0.8%, which was proven wrong for white damage multiple times.
But what about yellow damage?
0.8/4 = 0.2% per point of weapon skill. I calculated with 0.24% in my above example. Coincidence? I don't know.
What would have happened with 0.2% per point of defense and per point of weapon skill in the above example?
(161-10)*0.2 = 30.2% chance to be missed. Still a 6.37% chance for my equipment, so still within line for the example.


So - it seems - that Crezax wasn't necessarily wrong with his posting. Maybe he just mixed up white damage and yellow damage.

Of course it's still possible that it's just a different mechanic, I don't know for 100%. But it seems at leas a bit reasonable. As always, more testing is required, and with hit rating being wide spread on PvE gear, it is no wonder that most people (in this forum anyway) exceed the 8.6% hit cap for yellow damage.
Also, testing this further could be quite difficult, as you would need a target with more than +15 defense than yourself.

 

Punscho

I've started to /combatlog all raids I'm in and parse and save that data for figuring out avoidance rates. The thing is many bosses have some ability that makes them not face you all the time, thus tainting the parry/block sample a small amount. Considering simple parsing, which ones are good bosses and which ones are bad for this?

If we can conclude some really _great_ bosses we could get people to sumbit logs and we'd have large sample pretty swiftly I think.

Karazhan:
Attumen - good, I don't think the charge will affect your results
Moroes - good, unless you screw up the threat order the only swing without him facing you would be the one when you hit him while he's hitting he OT and that can be avoided by using a demo shout /shield bash or something you don't parse
Maiden - good
Big bad wolf - bad, since during the running part you don't know front/back unless you parse when the kiting begins but the fight has such short
Romulo & Julianne - good, as long as you remember which one you tanked
Crone - good, should face you while you're kiting
Nightbane - good
Curator - bad, doesn't avoid during evocation afaik
Illhoof - good
Aran - bad, no tanking
Netherspite - bad, you're not always the tank
Prince Malchezaar - good

Gruul's lair:
Maulgar - good, if you don't get feared
Gruul - ok, he doesn't face you during the ground slam/shatter if you intercept back in

Magtheridon's lair:
Magtheridon - ok, I don't know if he can parry during banish (probably not)

SSC:
Hydross - good, unless you're dpsing when it's not your tanking phase
Lurker - bad, you're hitting while he's spouts
Morogrim - good
Leotheras - bad, human/demon phases screws thing up
Karathress - good

The eye:
Lootreaver - good

 

Fridmarr

I believe that Attumen puts a curse on you that increases your miss rate by like 15%, so he's probably not a good choice.

 

Punscho

Yes. Also I run with different levels of hit. But this is for avoidance - parry, dodge, block.

 

Punscho

Is anyone interested in doing some weapon skill testing on the PTR? Usually you don't have enough people in the guild interested in this kinda of stuff so at least to me it's hard to get some folks to do mindless things for a couple of hours. Therefore the PTR would be a good place to gather theorycrafters from different servers.

If you are interested in testing stuff on the 2.2 PTR (Europe) and got time this weekend, let me know. I would need someone with (alot of) +weapon skill and someone without (me), since the most skill I can get is 9 unless I farm some new items. A healer with enough gear to keep me up while tanking would also be nice.

 

Dontmindme

Now, I was just reviewing this topic and something just struck me as interesting.

In this thread:
We have 8682 attacks against Venoxis with 350 weapon skill showing a glancing rate of 23.4%.
We have 9975 attacks against Venoxis with 365 weapon skill showing a glancing rate of 23.7%.
We have 2153 attacks against bosses with 369 weapon skill showing a glancing rate of 20.8%.

Now, I realize that the last sampling is rather small and this could account for the difference, but there is one other difference to be noted...

The last set of samples has a weapon skill that exceeds the expected 365 defense of the bosses. It doesn't look like there is any difference from 350-365, but does this mean that weapon skill in excess of 365 might reduce glancing blow frequency? Certainly this may require some testing. Do we have people out there that can put together some over the top weapon skill to test this?

It might also be interesting to see if this might reduce glancing damage reduction as well.

 

aquasheep

A long long long time ago, when our guild was first clearing BWL, I remember upgrading my gear from Aged Core Leather gloves to Bloodfang Gloves. The week after, we did Firemaw. Back then, I would typically wear a little bit of fire resist gear for Firemaw to stay in a bit longer from buffet resists, but would ALWAYS keep 6% to hit from gear (since the conventional wisdom at the time was 5.6% missrate), and was 31/8/10 at the time (no precision). With ACLG I had not missed a yellow attack on any MC/BWL boss (including Firemaw) for a long time. Going from ACLG to Bloodfang caused me to see my first backstab miss in a long while (and second, and third).

Now, you're all thinking, "well, duh. Everyone knows that 5.6% was wrong, you really need 8.6% to hit a raid boss, hunters have known that for years!" But, how else do you explain that I did Firemaw (and Broodlord, and Vael, and Rag, and every other boss I wore a bit of FR for) for weeks upon weeks with only 6% to hit and ACLG and never missed a backstab? Luck? Coincidence? Are you going to tell me that I was so lucky I managed to go through all those boss fights with a 3% missrate and managed to never see a BS miss (I used to save my Recaps for a lot of bosses, so I was able to confirm a lot of them), until I coincidentally upgraded my gear, after which I magically started seeing misses left and right?




Or maybe Weapon Skill has added a little bonus to +3 level mobs all along?

 

Iquark

Considering that Weapon Skill has been entirely reworked since Pre-BC this doesn't apply to anything.

 

sp00n

I'd love to read those threads, but you didn't provide any links along the title.

 

gatz

I have never seen a miss on raid boss for more than 1 month Dpsing with 94 or 97 hit rating (I thought hit cap were 90) whereas hit cap should be 138 when wielding a 2 hand weapon according to wikis and stickies.

I've got 5 weapon skill by racial trait and 4 by talent.

No dranei hunter, paly or warrior in my group.