• sadris

Before the creation of feral attack power, Druid weapons were typically those which involved high amounts of crit/strength/agility (i.e.: The Unstoppable Force). In 1.8, Blizzard introduced a new stat: Feral Attack Power which was supposed to help bridge the gap which was created between the scaling "real" weapons and the Druid "paw weapon." At first it seemed like a good idea, and there was much rejoicing. However, a glaring problem is starting to develop. But first look at the history of the pre-TBC FAP weapons:

Hammer of Bestial Fury
52.4dps / iLevel 71 / 154 FAP

Blessed Qiraji War Hammer
60.7dps / iLevel 70 / 280 FAP

Mace of Unending Life
41.5dps / iLevel 70 / 140 FAP

End of Dreams
43.5dps / iLevel 83 / 305 FAP

Looking at just the HOBF and BQWH, they do not have sacrificed DPS (their DPS matches exactly with that of equivalent iLevel non-FAP weapons). The MOUL and EOD do have sacrificed base DPS due to their caster stats; they are considered caster weapons but they have FAP strapped on as a bonus. How much FAP was allocated to them? Exactly enough to make the weapon's base DPS plus the FAP match that of an equivalent iLevel weapon. For example:

Sickle of Unyielding Strength
51.5dps

Mace of Unending Life
41.5dps + 140/14 = 51.5dps


Harbinger of Doom
65.3dps

End of Dreams
43.5dps + 305/14 = 65.3dps

So it seems that Druids are on the better side of the deal here for the End of Dreams only. Due to the base form dps of about 55, we gain about 10dps more. With the MOUL we actually lose DPS relative to other classes, most likely due to the low iLevel. If this trend of one-handed FAP weapons continued, Druids would gain more and more relative DPS as iLevel increased. However, this is for one-handed weapons only; assuming that other classes would be dual-wielding or using a two-hander, their base DPS would be higher. Thankfully, Blizzard "rectified" this in the Burning Crusade with two-handed FAP weapons. Now fast forward to where we are today:

Staff of Beasts (DPS matches with Honed Voidaxe)
60.2dps / iLevel 103 / 298 FAP
60.2 + 298/14 = 81.5dps

Dreamer's Dragonstaff (DPS matches with High Warlord's Claymore)
63dps / iLevel 115 / 423 FAP
63 + 423/14 = 93.2dps

Terestian's Stranglestaff (DPS matches with Despair)
67.2dps / iLevel 115 / 647 FAP
67.2 + 647/14 = 113.4dps

Wildfury Greatstaff (DPS matches with World Breaker)
69.4dps / iLevel 128 / 731 FAP
69.4 + 731/14 = 121.6dps

Pillar of Ferocity (Let's assume it matches to a weapon with 130.5 DPS)
71.5dps / iLevel 141 / 826 FAP
71.5 + 826/14 = 130.5dps

Staff of Disintegration (DPS matches with Devastation)
77.7dps / iLevel 175 / 1125 FAP
77.7 + 1125/14 = 158.1dps

Everything seems fine, except for one glaring issue: Druid base form DPS is not increasing as we equip higher-iLevel weapons. Our base form DPS is 55. It stays at 55. It has stayed at 55 grinding from 60 to 70. It is staying at 55 when patch 2.1 hits. And now if you calculate the DPS that Druids get with this in mind, a colossal issue surfaces: our relative DPS decreases as we get better gear.

Staff of Beasts: 55 + 298/14 = 76.7dps, 5.6% lower than Honed Voidaxe
Dreamer's Dragonstaff: 55 + 423/14 = 85.2dps, 8.5% lower than HW Claymore
Terestian's Stranglestaff: 55 + 647/14 = 101.2dps, 10.9% lower than Despair
Wildfury Greatstaff: 55 + 731/14 = 107.2dps, 11.8% lower than World Breaker
Pillar of Ferocity: 55 + 826/14 = 114dps, 12.6% lower than a 130.5dps weapon
Staff of Disintegration: 55 + 135.4dps, 14.4% lower than Devastation

If you extrapolate this to an item with iLevel of infinity, this disastrous pattern will continue. Now one must ask the question: Why?

My theory is that the item designers are simply following the pattern set forth by the EOD and MOUL: put enough FAP on the item so that the base DPS + FAP equals the DPS of an equivalent dagger, axe, etc. This would have worked if one-handers were still used as caster-based maces/daggers did not change their base DPS due to changes in iLevel. This is not the case for caster staves; their base DPS does increase. This leads to the problem, however, that Druids do not get to dual wield...

Now what about the HOBF and AQWH? Yes, their base DPS matches that of an equivalent weapon even without the FAP. I believe that this is because a] they wanted these items to remain useful to other classes (*cough* Warriors) or b] these were the first items they ever made with FAP and they had no idea what to do with them.

So my question to EJ is: Why do you think our weapons are reverse-scaling? Do you think Blizzard is aware of this issue? Do you think that FAP, overall, is a band-aid over a gushing wound and should be scraped altogether for true weapon scaling?

Note: Before you make yourself look dumb and post about our talents like Naturalist and self-buffs like Cat Form remember that other classes also have talents and self-buffs. (Weapon Mastery, Dual Wield Specialization and Berserker Stance, Fel Armor are just a few examples)

 

• Nite_Moogle

I'd say this is more likely the root of the problem than any intentional gimping of Feral AP.

 

Friedrich

Perhaps it's not intended that you get to scale as well with ilvl as the "pure" DPS classes? An analogy could perhaps be drawn to the itemization issues that Fury Warriors and Enhancement Shaman have to deal with. The former get Agility on their sets which is very inferior to crit rating for DPS purposes; the latter get int and mana/5 instead of more Str/Agi/crit/hit. In both cases item budget is being spent on a stat which has less DPS use but more some (marginal) utility. The result is that as ilvl increases, we won't scale as well as rogues or mages do. C'est la vie.

 

Gurrshael

The fact that FAP/14 + 55 does not match dps of a weapon with the same iLevel does not mean that our damage is scaling badly and/or that with "proper" amount of FAP we would scale like other classes. You have to consider abilities and their scaling too. For example: while our finishers scale with AP just like rogue's finishers do, we get more from it because we have a lot more AP than rogues. Does that mean that we scale better than rogues? It does not because it's not that simple

To be honest I am quite satisfied with cat's damage output. It looks really good on pre SSC level. Perhaps someone with better gear can tell us if other classes outscale us in SSC/Eye and beyond.

 

• Aldriana

It's certainly interesting that they are calculated that way, to be sure, but I'm not sure how much of an actual problem it is. While it's easy to say "all classes have talents that modify their damage", the question is how the talents go about doing so.

For druids, there are two circumstances under which FAP is interesting: 1) Bear Aggro Generation and 2) Cat DPS.

Now, the relevant comparison to the first is to a prot warrior, who a) is using a one-handed weapon, not a 2-handed weapon, meaning that the relavent comparison for, say, Terestian's Stranglestaff is not Despair but King's Defender, which is 87.5 dps, well below the "actual" 101.2 dps number for Stranglestaff.

In cat DPS, there's no clear analog to cat dps; MS warriors don't get a 2xweapon damage instant attack that they can land every 4 seconds, and rogues don't wield two-handed weapons.

My point? Yes, it's true that feral weapon damage does not scale as quickly as weapon damage. However, feral weapon damage, in a vaccuum, is a totally meaningless number. This is not to say that there *isn't* a problem here, simply that it's not a directly meaningful number to look at. To tell for certain whether a scaling issue exists would require working through the damage and threat calculations and seeing if druid threat is going to scale more poorly than warrior threat, or if druid dps is going to scale more poorly than fury warrior dps. Again: it might be true, but the information here, while interesting, doesn't prove anything about it.

 

nfw

I think feral druids scale well enough already, in fact, too well.

Edit: well I'd put down some numbers but the OP didn't want to see discussion involving druid talents, but just opinions on feral scaling.

 

• ex-Greybone

Thanks for this amazing insight, in the future please feel free to back it up with things like arguments and words and such.

(And yes I realize the irony of my post.)

ps. Your picture makes me wanna throwup and laugh at the same time.

 

Sherard

While having feral dps scale evenly with weapons of similar level seems great for pve content and would help narrow the raw dps gap in a raid environment, i think what is being done is intended.

Feral dps CANNOT be equal to that of a raw dps class (for instance a rogue) because, in the end, we can still heal. While this means nothing in a raid environment, in pvp this means everything. PVP is the reason prayer of mending was nerfed, the reason why weapon skill was made essentially useless, etc. etc. etc.

While it is very true that a feral druid in cat form will probably not pop out to heal very much (if at all) in 25 man content, in pvp they will and do-and so in order to balance that content our dps scales back.

As sad as it is, its the nature of the beast, and i dont think there is a way to balance it so that feral raiders maintain rogue dps while pvp druids are not overrpowered.

 

Tierce

Druids have non DPS stats on their gear as well. Our Tiered sets have Intellect that does not increase DPS, and extra armor, which while necessary for the tanking role, does not increase DPS either. We can grab non-set gear, but many of these items are not itemized to maximize our DPS, as they usually have Attack Power instead of strength and too much hit rating because they were designed more for rogues. Zierhut's Lost Treads are one of the few non-set items that really has feral druid stats on it, but even that item is a little stamina heavy for DPSing.

The point that Sadris is making (and it's a good one) is that for melee classes wielding normal weapons, upgrading a weapon is the biggest single slot upgrade that you can make for increasing your DPS, and Feral Druid weapons are quickly falling behind in this respect. The fact that other melee classes can grab Blacksmithing weapons that are generally far above the other gear available at the same level of progression is putting all other melee classes far ahead of feral druids in DPS output potential. I think someone above made the comment that the damage from our special attacks was high, and above that of other classes, but that is only because our white damage is far less compared to any other dual-wielding (and probably even 2-hand Warriors) melee combatant. Druids are not seeing the same benefits from weapon upgrades as other melee classes are, because as Sadris shows, we're not getting FAP equivalent to the DPS increase a similar weapon is giving to those other classes. On top of all that, we don't have these multipliers (that are necessary to scaling feral DPS) on our white damage attacks. Meanwhile other melee classes are getting weapon upgrades that are substantially increasing their white damage, plus getting better and better procs on those weapons to push their DPS even further.

And they can get mongoose, something that will forever put any other class ahead of feral druids in DPS output potential.

Have you ever tried simply turning off the TV, sitting down with your children, and hitting them?

 

Gibbles

EVERY time a druid dps thread comes up, somebody has to say "but druidz heal!" Its quickly becoming my pet peave. You mentioned rogue: Can a rogue not sap, blind, stunlock? I would argue that in many ways, these are superior tools in pvp compared to feral druid healing, and about equally worthwhile in raid setting to boot. The only reason I accept that feral dps is lower than rogue dps is that we make fanstastic (off)tanks.

At present, I am quite happy with how my dps/tanking abilities fit in with the raid, and I feel very usefull. But I look at itemization at the top end, I look at how other classes scale with thier upgrades, and I worry about how long I will be able to play the way I do now.

 

• sadris

When has this happened? Good rogues have never been beaten by good Druids, even when they were using the blues from the Ring of Blood (when there was only a 5.6% loss in effective weapon DPS). Six months from now, Rogues still won't be beat by Druids; they will absolutely destroy them due to the ever-decreasing relative DPS which our weapon "upgrades" provide.

I am not arguing anything about how our DPS should "match" that of Rogues/Warriors/etc. I am arguing that our weapons should progress at the same percent per iLevel point as true weapons.

http://elitistjerks.com/f57/t26374-savage_2_a/

 

• Aldriana

I don't totally disagree with your comment, but I just had to comment on this:

# of times I've sapped in SSC: 0
# of times I've blinded in SSC: 0

Admittedly, I do throw stuns from time to time, but I don't really stunlock.

# of times a feral druid has brezzed someone in SSC: large.
# of times a feral druid has innervated someone in SSC: large.

On the whole, I think the druid provides more raid utility. There's also considerations like: the druid can tank almost as well as a prot warrior, and dps almost as well as a fury warrior, making them extremely good offtanks for raids. Rogues cannot provide the same utility.

Rogues also don't give LotP, for that matter.

My point? Druids provide many things in PvE that rogues don't - the reason why people bring rogues to SSC is because they need the damage output we provide. Therefore, rogue dps *needs* to be higher than feral dps, or our role would be totally coopted. Plus, as I menetioned previously, the fact that your weapon damage doesn't scale as well as a 2H weapon doesn't mean for certain that your raid dps will not.

 

tetracycloide

I think you missed the point of the post in favor of lumping it in with a seperate group of posts about druids being able to heal. The point is not that druids can heal, the point, at least as I understood it, was that gear is balanced from a PvP perspective as well as a PvE perspective. Sometimes, some would argue most of the time, PvE balance unfortunatly takes a back seat to balancing for PvP.

 

• Wodin

What? During the pre-Mangle nerf days bear druids who had a platform to effectively use Swipe(thus feeding the Swipe -> Primal Fury engine) would regularly outDPS poorly geared rogues, and at the well-geared level it depended on the character of the instance(i.e. Rogues didn't stand a chance in Shattered Halls, but did ok in Steam Vaults). I sympathize with your position, as getting gear that feels like it's weaker than that of another class is no fun, but blatant rewriting of the past is a bit silly.

I think this ship has pretty much sailed, to be honest, as caster weapons are actually scaling better than melee weapons now(due to the sheer volume of percentage modifiers the base +dmg on that weapon is being run through). A rogue gets the raw dps plus the SS bonus damage(1.06 + Lethality bonus on crits). Your typical fire mage in a raid environment ends up getting 3% from playing with Fire, 4% from Molten Fury, 10% from Firepower, 15% from Empowered Fireball, and 5% from Misery.

 

dukes

First, druids "haelz me ZOMG YUO NOOB" comments should be left at the door. This is a pure theorycraft discussion about how/why druid FAP is not scaling properly in a direct comparison with actual DPS on weapons, not some bullshit about what druids can do, should do, or may do in the future. If you want that, the blizzard forums are available I'm sure (or you could even try a new thread on this forum, if you really want).


OK, now to the point. The direct scaling difference means somewhere in the legendary area of weaponry (arguably the direct end of TBC, moving into the next expansion) we lose out ~15% on other melee classes direct scaling. That's a pretty significant difference in and of itself. If you assume that we scale better on everything else (which we do, strength being 2.4x and agility being 1x for AP calculations) then it pretty easily makes up for it imo. That direct contribution adds more than anything else really, especially when you add in that because we stack stats (or much prefer to) then BoK is of more benefit to us than any other class (arguably, but pretty much true).

When you consider that the stats on Terestians adds 38 str and 37 agility, it's a direct conversion to 128.2 AP and nearly 1.5% crit, ignoring BoK. When you consider the stats of, say, Emerald Ripper + Malchazeen (50AP+15hit, 19agi+36AP, similar stam) then the direct equivalent in stats is maybe 10-15% difference. According to your karazhan equivalent up there, Terestians is 10%ish less powerful than Despair in direct dps->FAP equivalent.

I'm not saying this is the entire reason for the difference, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's being taken in to account at least slightly.

 

• sadris

Get out. This isn't a Rogue vs Druid debate. This is about the calculation (or miscalculation) of feral attack power when applied to two-handers of sacrificed base DPS. If you want to complain about your class' lack of utility then make a thread for it; this thread is for itemization.

An interesting point, but take a look at a much simpler comparison (i.e.: without a proc):
Gladiator's Maul (iLevel 115)
67.2dps
+32 Strength
+48 Stamina
Improves hit rating by 17.
Improves critical strike rating by 32.
Improves your resilience rating by 25.
Increases feral attack power by 654

Gladiator's Bonegrinder (iLevel 115)
115.1dps
+32 Strength
+48 Stamina
Improves hit rating by 17.
Improves critical strike rating by 32.
Improves your resilience rating by 25.

Based on this, the stats on an item are not even taken into account for the amount of FAP which is allowed. As such, the iLevel determines only what the base DPS should be and how many stats it should have. If Blizzard decides to make it a FAP weapon, then they take off an (arbitrary??) amount of base DPS and converts it to feral attack power. If, by your theory, that the base stats somehow influence the amount of added FAP then these two items should not be identical, which isn't the case.

http://elitistjerks.com/f57/t26374-savage_2_a/

 

dukes

As true as that is, the stats on those items convert better for druids, which was my point (more than the fact that stats make up for things directly). i.e. that 32 strength is worth more to a cat than any other melee class. Same with the stamina, it converts to more stamina for a bear than for any other class.

Obviously, gladiator weapons are slightly "gimped" in this respect as they don't offer as much in terms of "convertable" stats. Unfortunately, they're also the best weapons to use for direct comparison because of the way they're designed.

I also think the amount of FAP isn't arbitary, but directly linked to ilevel. It would appear that way at least.

 

• sadris

Yes but not all Druids have HOTW, and it is a perfectly fine assumption to make that resto Druids may, at some point, loot a feral weapon. Why should their upgrade path be in a state of perpetual decline? Similarily, a prot Warrior may loot a two-handed weapon; they wouldn't complain that its undervalued because fury Warriors get more out of it (Imp Berserker Stance). As stated in my original post, do not take into account talents or self-buffs as the evaluation of the weapons must be done alongside other weapons, not alongside other weapons plus talents.

One could say that Warriors get 10% less AP than Druids per point of strength, but their Deep Wounds talent would make up for it and as such, their base weapon DPS should be lowered.

http://elitistjerks.com/f57/t26374-savage_2_a/

 

tedv

Not to muddy the waters any more, but Shred (225% damage for 42 energy) also scales better than Backstab (150% damage for 60 energy with bonus crit), although druids lack Slice and Dice. I won't say more because I honestly haven't run the numbers, but the situation is a great deal more complex than can be analyzed based on bonus Feral Attack Power values alone.

 

• Exewut

Weaponspeed.

1,7 vs 1,0

 

stampy

Why dont druid weapons add DPS in the same amount as for classes that use the weapon damage? Easy... druids get much more from base stats.

This chart assumes that druid has heart of the wild and survival of the fittest. I'm actually not sure whether these stack additively or multiplicatively for strength, so I assumed additive... the least beneficial to the druid. For other classes, I assumed all talents that increased stat effectiveness were taken (without needing more than 61 talent points, no imp zerker stance + vitality), and I even counted blessing of kings for pallies as a self-buff, even though it can obviously be cast on druids.

Those numbers dwarf your concerns over 14%.

Indeed, druids do not get quite the same benefit from feral dps stats as weapon-using classes get from base dps. But, the weapon using classes dont get nearly the same benefit that druids get for base stats. And though you can make a (mildly faulty) case that paladins get similar scaling, if you complain about being outdpsed by a paladin of any spec, you should be forced to reroll or at least never spec feral again.

If I were to come in here and claim that warriors should get 1 AP per agi, and only need 25 agi per 1% crit,