Sorry to post in this ancient thread but... you don't think this is broken in any way? Being able to outperform or "replace", as you put it, two other classes (those classes having to spec for a single role while you can spec for two), with a single spec?

Also you completely ignored the fact of the glancing blows/cleaves change which was really what brought rogues to where they should be in DPS.

If your client exists in a r2.0 vacuum your post would be relevant. There are way more factors to rogue DPS vs. druid DPS, especially over the time frame you have posed, than just weapon damage/AP.

Shit, you didn't even address the fact that you're still a 100% viable tank in the end game. Did this somehow slip your mind between Kara and BT as well?

You're actually using weapons that are, essentially, a gimmick for a particular fight as an argument that Druid itemization and scaling are worse than other classes?

In our guild, rogues deal 1900 dps and druids struggle to break 1100, it is just as I predicted

I find it very hard to believe you can't break 1100 on "most fights" when your rogues are doing 1900. The other feral druid in my guild manages just under 1k while rogues are doing 1200.

It might be possible if Druids had access to T6 quality weapons, but we don't. There is a terrible staff from Hyjal with wasted points on base DPS, then additional wasted points on armor. Then there is the Merciless Gladiator's mace, with wasted points on base DPS, then on resilience. Also there is a lack of any druid bracers in the game, no T6 belt, etc etc; but this post is not about lack of Druid itemization, it is about wasted item points on base DPS

WWS
WWS

Lets assme I could get another 40dps from not having to go battle res/innervate someone, there is still a vast chasm of DPS between rogues/druids, and this wasn't the case 3 months ago. (Perhaps because we didn't have so much lost FAP due to base weapon DPS, just a theory...)

Druids could also do this, but they would lose a sizable portion of the potion (do you see what I did there?) due to the GCD after switching into a form.

dalamar, I couldn't have said it better. exactly what I'm talking about.

Tejing

Yes, it was a bonus stats for the Hammer of Beastial Fury and the Qiraji Warhammer and to a lesser extent the End of Dreams and Atiesh, but then they decided to seriously stuff us by retardedly throwing "Moonkin" onto Feral AP. Now there will NEVER be another real DPS weapon for Druids that is in contention with a warrior or rogue.

What I would give for proper scaling, DPS stats and being able to fucking CRAFT a tier 6 weapon that has also has GOOD STATS.



Yes.... , but the Sword is roughly equivalent to the Dagger, which both are pretty much the same increase as experienced by the Bow and Axe. Most other DPS classes will experience a rather significant DPS upgrade from this fight while still being required to pummel or kick on cooldown, Druids do not. It just seemed like another "you don't need to be good, you get a LOLAURA."

(I also know that Enh shaman get owned by the itemization of this fight and do not need a refresher in their poor state here)



This is mainly a discussion about tier 6 and such, and yes our dps will probably advance around 100 from the gear you wear right now to mid tier 6 equipment, while a rogue going from tier 5 to tier 6 gets at least twice that. Your rogues should be higher though.

It depends on group makeup and such, parsing numbers for ferals is REALLY hard though, because our dps is so low at this point it is not justifiable to put us in a rogue slot of a DPS group for fights like Anetheron or Teron Gorefiend where we can actually run DPS tests.



Rogues are getting multipliers upon multipliers when it comes to Haste, offhand attacks and Weapon topends when they pot or receive upgrades, we are not. Haste potions, much like everything else about Druid dps comes in at like 80% for us compared to a rogue, and we are burning white attacks(and energy cycles next patch) to use them.

You can't look at weapon DPS for a Druid in a vacuum. When the developers began to use FAP they did not take away our modifiers from our armor. We didn't suddenly have similar DPS gain from armor stats alone versus a Rogue or Warrior or any other class. It remained the same.

The developers also have to balance things around the maximum possible. Maximum number of buffs, potions and other consumables, as well as maximum talent spec and raid organization such as placing feral Druids and rogues into the same group. No rogue has a perma 5% crit to all of their weapon attacks, and no Fury nor Arms nor Defense Warrior either.

I firmly believe the developers have a vision of where they want things to be and they work toward that vision. You have to look at the whole. You have to see the maximum and see that if 4 rogues and a Feral Druid are in the same group they will do more DPS then 5 rogues would. The Druid effectively gains the DPS of 4 warriors crits, 5% of the time. The same holds true for the other 2 trees, Moonkin and Tree of Life. Druids simply function differently. They thrive on a group mechanic, that is what the developers want.

The developers have to balance around all of this. Bears and Cats and Moonkin ALL have to utilize that FAP. We cant have bears with insane amounts of damage dealing capabilities. Mangle was nerfed, remember? Would you rather they nerfed our FAP weapons? I wouldn't. So they are balancing everything, talents skills and abilities along with 3 functions, while trying to maintain respectable Cat DPS and Moonkin usability all in the same weapon, across THREE weapon speeds and THREE sets of maximum utilization of talents, group placement and consumables.

This argument has come from Rogues from the other end. Complaints that they would love to have 700+ AP on their weapons or a 1.0 second attack speed. The same could be said for Druids needing only 415 Defense or equivalent with Resilience. Are you saying our itemization is under budget because we have much less defense on our items versus a Protection Warriors items? It is very similar argument tho only effecting one form at maximum.

In the end, for BC FAP weapons, no one wants to use them except Druids. You also can't bring up the past as examples and not concede that it has been a good solution thus far. All I am seeing from your OP is that Druids require less item budget to become similarly powerful. Good for us, we get a hell of a lot more from our other armor and stats. You know , like Druids running around at level 70 with MoT?

Looking into the future I do not see it as an issue. I feel it is the ONLY thing they can do to fill the gap without introducing Druid Class specific restricted items with insane amounts of Str and Agi in order to keep Rogues from scaling up even more, especially in the new BC world of scaled down 5 piece class sets. They can pretty arbitrarily fill in what AP they want us to have too meet that vision with the only constraints being balance among forms and equal utilization.

Why would it be in their vision for Rogue DPS to increase by 63% going from Karazhan gear to T6, but Druids to only increase by 9%? Are we balanced at the Karazhan level? Does upgrading to T6 gear make us become "more balanced?" Let's face it, the majority of Druids don't have access to T6, so of course the developers would aim to tone Druid abilities to be of similar damage output at a lower level of content. You can't say that Druids are within the developers "plan of balance" if we are within 16% of a Rogue DPS in Karazhan ("balanced" at that point), but fall down to 60% of a Rogue's DPS in Hyjal (also "balanced" at this point???).

The whole point, which was shown without contravention on the previous page of the thread, was that this does not hold for tier 6 content. It seems to me like you read the OP and ignored the rest of the thread, since everything else you said is just a rehash of already-discussed material as well.

Some classes are absurdly overpowered at lower levels of gear though. Shadowpriests with just crafted shit used to destroy every other DPS caster because of how good the tailoring gear is for us, and how small an upgrade it is to go from tailored gear to T6 gear.

Does this mean that Shadowpriests are underpowered at the T6 itemization level? No, just that they were obscenely overpowered beforehand when you could do mage like damage and restore insane amounts of mana.

Druids are exactly the same way, there is zero reason to take a rogue or a warrior over a feral druid until you have at the very least full tier4, because the damage differential in no way makes up for the utility and support you gain.

If anything you should advocate for a nerf to the base power of certain classes including shadowpriests at lower gear levels.