Feral Attack Power: When good intentions go dumb. - Page 12

Dejablue · 07/26/07, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by sadris

Why would it be in their vision for Rogue DPS to increase by 63% going from Karazhan gear to T6, but Druids to only increase by 9%? Are we balanced at the Karazhan level? Does upgrading to T6 gear make us become "more balanced?" Let's face it, the majority of Druids don't have access to T6, so of course the developers would aim to tone Druid abilities to be of similar damage output at a lower level of content. You can't say that Druids are within the developers "plan of balance" if we are within 16% of a Rogue DPS in Karazhan ("balanced" at that point), but fall down to 60% of a Rogue's DPS in Hyjal (also "balanced" at this point???).

I think the "vision" from SSC on is to have a class that can provide a great offtank and then immediately provide great DPS by shifting in combat.

As far as the arbitrary 80% DPS cats are imagined as capable of. imagine a cat pulling 4 million damage out and rogues pulling 5 million in a group with 4 rogues and a feral cat. 1 million of that damage minimum is from LOTP crits where the Druid is actually providing more damage than the individual rogues, tho vicariously.

gah sorry keep editing out my annoying sig,headed to profile to change it now....

• sadris · 07/26/07, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Dejablue

We gain MORE DPS and MORE percentage in our weapon upgrades, sorry.

www.juggernautguild.com/wws/

WWS to WWS says differently.

Dejablue · 07/26/07, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

www.juggernautguild.com/wws/

Hehe I was just getting ready to ask you for a WWS thanks man

• Vykromond · 07/26/07, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Dejablue

I think the "vision" from SSC on is to have a class that can provide a great offtank and then immediately provide great DPS by shifting in combat.

As far as the arbitrary 80% DPS cats are imagined as capable of. imagine a cat pulling 4 million damage out and rogues pulling 5 million in a group with 4 rogues and a feral cat. 1 million of that damage minimum is from LOTP crits where the Druid is actually providing more damage than the individual rogues, tho vicariously.

gah sorry keep editing out my annoying sig,headed to profile to change it now....

You picked a completely arbitrary number and then announced that it proves that Druids provide more damage? Seriously? That doesn't even rise to the level of 'napkin math.'

Here is a selection of, you know, real numbers. I used Teron, a nice melee-friendly fight, and took a report from the highest DPS guilds containing feral druids. I ignored one guild whose feral druid is an idiot and doesn't use Rip, which lowered his DPS by about 300.
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Doesn't look to me like cats are doing 80%, what does it look like to you?

Valerian · 07/26/07, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Dejablue

There is a 12 DPS 35% increase from

Malorne Harness - Item Sets - World of Warcraft
To
Thunderheart Harness - Item Sets - World of Warcraft

STAVES

Wildfury Greatstaff - Items - World of Warcraft
to
Pillar of Ferocity - Items - World of Warcraft

is a 14.8 DPS increase in DPS. 35%

is an 11.7 DPS 20% upgrade from

Terestian's Stranglestaff - Items - World of Warcraft

24 - 27 DPS increase, 35%, from bare stats alone, not including gems and non set items.

ROGUES

There is a 9.4 DPS 37% increase from

Netherblade - Item Sets - World of Warcraft
TO
Slayer's Armor - Item Sets - World of Warcraft

15.2 DPS 6.3% upgrade from

Malchazeen - Items - World of Warcraft
TO
Shard of Azzinoth - Items - World of Warcraft

13.7 DPS 6.7% upgrade from

Emerald Ripper - Items - World of Warcraft
TO
Messenger of Fate - Items - World of Warcraft

I think Rogues may wish to argue this in reverse.

We gain MORE DPS and MORE percentage in our weapon upgrades, sorry.

Uh where are you pulling these numbers from? All gear increases at roughly the same level item budget wise. However increasing from a 91 DPS dagger to a 106 dps dagger is MUCH more than a 15 dps increase for the rogue in question when you're talking about their total DPS which is what we are complaining is not scaling properly.

Dejablue · 07/26/07, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

www.juggernautguild.com/wws/

WWS to WWS says differently.

Appears to confirm it to me man.

Let me look some more.

Dejablue · 07/26/07, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Valerian

Uh where are you pulling these numbers from? All gear increases at roughly the same level item budget wise. However increasing from a 91 DPS dagger to a 106 dps dagger is MUCH more than a 15 dps increase for the rogue in question when you're talking about their total DPS which is what we are complaining is not scaling properly.

everyone has been talking about weapons FAP scaling....... and it is clearly stated to NOT use talents or class specific abilities which I agree with you, YOU CAN'T. You have to look at everything.

I don't know the group makeup, you ahve to look at everything, my arbitrary number isn't saying druids don't DPS as much, it is saying, "you are using an arbitrary number and saying not to use special class abilities and only talk about weapon dps!!1!!!". I think it shows and has shown, you avhe to consider everything.

Valerian · 07/26/07, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Vykromond

You picked a completely arbitrary number and then announced that it proves that Druids provide more damage? Seriously? That doesn't even rise to the level of 'napkin math.'

Here is a selection of, you know, real numbers. I used Teron, a nice melee-friendly fight, and took a report from the highest DPS guilds containing feral druids. I ignored one guild whose feral druid is an idiot and doesn't use Rip, which lowered his DPS by about 300.
Wow Web Stats
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Doesn't look to me like cats are doing 80%, what does it look like to you?

From a quick estimation there, if you include the bonus from LoTP the druids are still only doing like 70% of the top rogue's DPS. There are other issues as well, such as either non-optimal gearing (not all the druids have 2set Malorne) non-optimal groups (not all the druids are getting the Enh Shammy) and other things such as non-optimal use of powershifting. That said, it still probably wouldnt make up the difference but there are a lot of factors that need to be looked at aside just the flat numbers.

Dejablue · 07/26/07, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Valerian

From a quick estimation there, if you include the bonus from LoTP the druids are still only doing like 70% of the top rogue's DPS. Though the druid (at least in the first one) isnt optimally geared for DPS (no malorne bonus) and isnt powershifting very often (3 times in almost 4 min seems a tad low). By no means would that make the difference, but being 50% of the top rogue's dps is partially a problem of poor play skill as well just from the WWS logs.

Exactly.

Range and positioning and assisting can all be issues.

Yea if you look at the Juggernaut one it shows pretty well how a Druid DOES do less damage and less DPS, but as I was pointing out he is providing the rogues and or warriors with 5% crit, which cant be overlooked.

Weapon scaling, the OP, we scale with more DPS and percentage, we are a different class so we still dont compete on that level, we are an asset because we boost the rogues and can OT/Cat.

here is a good one:

WWS

if the Druid is in a group with 4 other melee doin 550000 and the Druids are pulling 350000 they are actually doing upwards of 460000 or 83% of teh rogues due to LOTP.I am saying that I think the devs realise this and it is by design to ahve the druids be a group reliant class in a singular, and/or hybrid role.

And nothing is perfect, even all of the rogues arent up there with the best rogues. I think the best they can do is say this is where we want druids to be so well slap on FAP to put them there. And you are right, looks good on papaer, doesnt pan out so well in practice.

Trazhenko · 07/26/07, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

WWS to WWS says differently.

About these two:

In the first, Grimx has 47% glancing, in the second, 29%. This means the gruul kill was done before the glancing change, and before the consumable change and gear buffs (were those the same patch or different ones?).

The change to the glancing rate was more beneficial to rogues because of a naturally higher % white damage. The gear/consumable change was not a huge impact, but I believe my personal damage rose slightly when it happened, and druids definitely gained more from a full bar of elixirs than a rogue at the time due to 2AP/str and lower Agi:Crit ratio.

He was also spec'd daggers in the first one, but he's swords now (swords are simply better, especially with mangle available, maybe the drops just weren't there at the time, I know the drops aren't there for me

).

If the gruul kill happened today with the same gear levels, but a sword build and the current glancing rate, the gap would be larger at gruul, and the change would be less dramatic going to T6.

Would he still be outpacing you? Probably. Do I think it's a problem? Not really, but I'm a rogue too :P.

It's interesting to note that the top druid on both charts placed 6th, so in either situation, you can't really say they are all that terrible.

The magic damage on the recent WWS is absolutely atrocious, but this may be a function of the encounter (I've never been there). If it's not "caster unfriendly", maybe they have more reason to complain than druids.

Dejablue · 07/26/07, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Trazhenko

About these two:

In the first, Grimx has 47% glancing, in the second, 29%. This means the gruul kill was done before the glancing change, and before the consumable change and gear buffs (were those the same patch or different ones?).

The change to the glancing rate was more beneficial to rogues because of a naturally higher % white damage. The gear/consumable change was not a huge impact, but I believe my personal damage rose slightly when it happened, and druids definitely gained more from a full bar of elixirs than a rogue at the time due to 2AP/str and lower Agi:Crit ratio.

He was also spec'd daggers in the first one, but he's swords now (swords are simply better, especially with mangle available, maybe the drops just weren't there at the time, I know the drops aren't there for me

).

If the gruul kill happened today with the same gear levels, but a sword build and the current glancing rate, the gap would be larger at gruul, and the change would be less dramatic going to T6.

Would he still be outpacing you? Probably. Do I think it's a problem? Not really, but I'm a rogue too :P.

It's interesting to note that the top druid on both charts placed 6th, so in either situation, you can't really say they are all that terrible.

The magic damage on the recent WWS is absolutely atrocious, but this may be a function of the encounter (I've never been there). If it's not "caster unfriendly", maybe they have more reason to complain than druids.

I couldn't agree more man. That Druid is awesome, his LOTP is pulling down almost an extra 100000 if he is grouped with he melee and ranged, Lets even say he is a Bear. A tank pulling down an extra 100K damage? Crazy man.

• sadris · 07/26/07, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mearis

Does this mean that Shadowpriests are underpowered at the T6 itemization level? No, just that they were obscenely overpowered beforehand when you could do mage like damage and restore insane amounts of mana.

No, it means that Frozen Shadowweave didn't have wasted points on holy damage (like priest T4,5,6 does). Very very similar to the FAP situation; there is few wasted item points on base weapon DPS in the Terrestrian's Stranglestaff era, but there is a metric fuckton of wasted potential AP at the Pillar of Ferocity era. If a Frozen ShadoweaveT6 came out, the gap between SP/mages would be a lot less.

Dalamar · 07/26/07, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

but there is a metric fuckton of wasted potential .

Wow, stole my line....

I feel violated.

So would the "fix" be to have all weapons based off the same statistic as casters where its 42.7dps (i guess this would be 55 for cat right)+ Feral AP equaling the proper dps of a standard weapon.

Dalamar · 07/26/07, 4:48 PM

Let's start, 5% crit is not a 5% damage increase.

Also its pretty funny, I thought the point was to get away from making stupid 5 rogue or 5 mage DPS groups. If we are not at least nearly comparable, we will not get spots over a 3rd rogue. Or do you not remember the "glory" days of 8 - 10 warriors in a Naxx raid. We are currently just a tank group slot or a hunter group aura bot when short on a hunter/shaman.

Ideally after converting the extra damage to the party into the druids damage, the Druid should outdamage what a rogue would have done in that spot, as a Fury and in some circumstances a MS Warrior, and an Enhancement shaman currently does.

Windfury, pots and having no offhand attack are really hurting our scaling into tier 6.

david0925 · 07/26/07, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Dalamar

Let's start, 5% crit is not a 5% damage increase.

Also its pretty funny, I thought the point was to get away from making stupid 5 rogue or 5 mage DPS groups. If we are not at least nearly comparable, we will not get spots over a 3rd rogue. Or do you not remember the "glory" days of 8 - 10 warriors in a Naxx raid. We are currently just a tank group slot or a hunter group aura bot when short on a hunter/shaman.

Ideally after converting the extra damage to the party into the druids damage, the Druid should outdamage what a rogue would have done in that spot, as a Fury and in some circumstances a MS Warrior, and an Enhancement shaman currently does.

Windfury, pots and having no offhand attack are really hurting our scaling into tier 6.

Pretty much, can we try to stay away from the "lol but you buff group option." Should we award 10% of SP dmg to warlocks due to COS? Conversely should we award 10% warlock dmg to SP due to shadow weaving? Should the MT get dps credit for putting up 5SA? Its not possible to actually calculate dmg like that if you do that to everything.

As it is right now, with 3 rogues in the raid (this is actually highly favored for everything other than maybe Illidari council or Illidan), Druid wont get a spot in melee dps group, period, due to the fact that both Battleshout and totems, neither of which need to be improved version, are superior to LoTP buff. Even IF Druids do get into the melee group due to lack of a rogue, not scalaing from Windfury is hurting greatly. This is beside the point though, right now on a high level content, we don't have specialized weapon that doesn't waste item budget. This is important because we can swap weapon in combat, which means it is NOT necessary to play hybrids with the weapon