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07/26/07, 5:24 PM
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#181
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King Hippo
Night Elf Druid
Blackhand
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Originally Posted by Dalamar
Ideally after converting the extra damage to the party into the druids damage, the Druid should outdamage what a rogue would have done in that spot, as a Fury and in some circumstances a MS Warrior, and an Enhancement shaman currently does.
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I wouldnt necesarilly agree with that. I'd say if it were at around 90% maybe even 85% of a rogue's damage it would be reasonable, due to the fact that a feral does bring other things to the raid as well (Bres, innervate, spot heal, OT etc)
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07/26/07, 6:04 PM
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#182
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Tichondrius
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Do you then replace EVERY single dps, tank and healer in your raid with druids, because brez, innervate, spot healing, and OTing are so damn crazy with druids. Hell no, druids rarely see more than 2 or maybe 3 spots in the average raid. With the problems with the other specs and feral we are an less than useful class that can basically give other more competent classes a free fuck up every half hour and an extra super(or superior for shaman/paladins) mana potions every 6 minutes. Neither of which is even the slightest bit useful if we are MTing most bosses in the game.
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07/26/07, 6:06 PM
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#183
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Tichondrius
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Originally Posted by Valerian
I wouldnt necesarilly agree with that. I'd say if it were at around 90% maybe even 85% of a rogue's damage it would be reasonable, due to the fact that a feral does bring other things to the raid as well (Bres, innervate, spot heal, OT etc)
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90% is where our damage should be on a WWS parse, after all is said and done with party buffs and whatnot. We are WAY too low to be considered dps right now.
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07/26/07, 6:35 PM
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#184
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Dalamar
90% is where our damage should be on a WWS parse, after all is said and done with party buffs and whatnot. We are WAY too low to be considered dps right now.
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Then why do you persist in considering yourselves DPS at the tier 6 level instead of off-tanks with better DPS than 50+ prot warriors?
It seems fairly clear, given the itemization, that in kara feral druids are supposed to be a viable OT choice that actually offeres decent DPS to compensate for the fact that it's a 10 man group with 6-7 DPS. With only 6-7 people the DPS really was necessary to make progression possible because sacrificing a large portion of DPS on one slot is huge when you only have 6-7 people DPSing. Fastforward to 25 man content and suddenly the denominator of this equation is much bigger so the DPS difference from a 'pure' DPS class is much less significant.
Is it possible to swap in a pure DPS for DPS check fights you can barely beat and an OT isn't necessary? Yeah sure it's possible, it's also fairly insignificant. Even if you assume that a druid is 10% of a rogue's damage and the fight is just barely possible with the rogue, which is overstating the diminished capacity of druid DPS by quite a bit, the raid DPS need only improve by 4.5-5.3% in order to make up for the loss. How long is it going to take for the raid to accumulate enough drops to make up the difference?
Cheep shotting someone just because their guild isn't linked in their profile on this forums is about the kind of bullshit I'd expect on the wow forums, not here.
Last edited by tetracycloide : 07/28/07 at 6:18 PM.
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My vanity is justified.
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07/26/07, 11:27 PM
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#185
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Dragonblight
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Because offtanking is
A) Easy
B) Rarely needed
C) Easily hotswappable
Furthermore, offtank has a minimum requirement. Hold the mob and stay alive. Once those needs are met, more performance there isn't needed. Especially as compared to more dps. Holding the mob more and staying alive better aren't high on the list of desirable quantities in a raid slot, so once a fury warrior has demonstrated that they can hold the offtank mob they start looking MUCH better as a raid slot.
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07/27/07, 12:59 AM
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#186
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Bald Bull
Tauren Druid
Lightbringer
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Originally Posted by Dejablue
This argument has come from Rogues from the other end. Complaints that they would love to have 700+ AP on their weapons or a 1.0 second attack speed. The same could be said for Druids needing only 415 Defense or equivalent with Resilience. Are you saying our itemization is under budget because we have much less defense on our items versus a Protection Warriors items? It is very similar argument tho only effecting one form at maximum.
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As an aside, not a single rogue would be willing to trade 826 AP for a loss of 58.9 dps on both of their weapons, and not a single rogue would ever want a 1.0 attack speed considering the huge advantage 2.5+ speed weapons have for PPM effects.
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07/27/07, 8:39 AM
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#187
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Banned
Night Elf Druid
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by david0925
Pretty much, can we try to stay away from the "lol but you buff group option." Should we award 10% of SP dmg to warlocks due to COS? Conversely should we award 10% warlock dmg to SP due to shadow weaving? Should the MT get dps credit for putting up 5SA? Its not possible to actually calculate dmg like that if you do that to everything.
As it is right now, with 3 rogues in the raid (this is actually highly favored for everything other than maybe Illidari council or Illidan), Druid wont get a spot in melee dps group, period, due to the fact that both Battleshout and totems, neither of which need to be improved version, are superior to LoTP buff. Even IF Druids do get into the melee group due to lack of a rogue, not scalaing from Windfury is hurting greatly. This is beside the point though, right now on a high level content, we don't have specialized weapon that doesn't waste item budget. This is important because we can swap weapon in combat, which means it is NOT necessary to play hybrids with the weapon
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I agree completely man. The problem is that I think the devs ARE thinking this way. They added the auras to provide raid utility and viability. Otherwise the LOTP would be raid wide or castable on others. Even if you DO consider this we are still way below for serious competition.
They have to get over the fact that we can switch from a "rogue" to a "warrior" to a "caster". It costs mana and the current iteration involves the same stat stacking for maximum use as any other class. It is the same ole same ole, "but you can heal, but you can DPS, but you can tank," argument holding us back. A Feral Druid should be able to do EXACTLY what an arms or fury warrior can do, with proper gear of course, OT and DPS effectively and competitively, NOT push rogues out of their position, but make it viable.
There are so many solutions from decent Idols to better weapon scaling to stat synergy to specialized weapons. It isn't just weapon scaling or item budget, it is basic design flaw. They STILL do not get it.
It really reminds me of the change from AQ where Ferals were starting to hold their own and be contenders and viable, and then Naxx hit and it is was a wasteland for feral itemization and viability.
I don't think it will change. The MO seems to be Ferals are tanks for everyone to level while the warriors are fury and then we OT for a bit in raids and are pushed out in the last instance of the end game while everyone else gets their uber shiny epics and legendarys.
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07/27/07, 9:46 AM
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#188
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Boevis
As an aside, not a single rogue would be willing to trade 826 AP for a loss of 58.9 dps on both of their weapons, and not a single rogue would ever want a 1.0 attack speed considering the huge advantage 2.5+ speed weapons have for PPM effects.
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Cause no rogues ever play using daggers, we ALL want 2.5+ weapons.
Where do you come up with this garbage?
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07/27/07, 10:03 AM
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#189
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Trollbane
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Originally Posted by McTurok
Cause no rogues ever play using daggers, we ALL want 2.5+ weapons.
Where do you come up with this garbage?
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Um..lets see here:
A dagger rogue would want daggers of roughly 1.6-1.8ish MH and if possible 1.3ish for OH.
So lets go with 1.8 and 1.3 for weapon speeds.
In this case you will get:
In 6 seconds, not counting SnD, haste, or any weapon speed inc., you will get 7 swings from your MH(3 @ 5.4 sec) and OH(4 @ 5.2 sec). Now a Druid with their "godly" 1 sec Atk speed will get 6. So you tell me man would you rather have 6 or 7 swings.
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07/27/07, 10:04 AM
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#190
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Period Queef.
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Originally Posted by Dejablue
It is the same ole same ole, "but you can heal, but you can DPS, but you can tank," argument holding us back.
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A Druid is not allowed to heal well, because they can tank.
A Druid is not allowed to tank well, because they can DPS.
A Druid is not allowed to DPS well, because they can heal.

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07/27/07, 10:06 AM
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#191
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Devreser
Um..lets see here:
A dagger rogue would want daggers of roughly 1.6-1.8ish MH and if possible 1.3ish for OH.
So lets go with 1.8 and 1.3 for weapon speeds.
In this case you will get:
In 6 seconds, not counting SnD, haste, or any weapon speed inc., you will get 7 swings from your MH(3 @ 5.4 sec) and OH(4 @ 5.2 sec). Now a Druid with their "godly" 1 sec Atk speed will get 6. So you tell me man would you rather have 6 or 7 swings.
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You missed the point completely.
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07/27/07, 11:44 AM
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#192
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Tarren Mill (EU)
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Originally Posted by Valerian
Uh where are you pulling these numbers from? All gear increases at roughly the same level item budget wise. However increasing from a 91 DPS dagger to a 106 dps dagger is MUCH more than a 15 dps increase for the rogue in question when you're talking about their total DPS which is what we are complaining is not scaling properly.
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Not only that, going by the numbers Dejablue posted, it appears that he neither subtracted 41.4 dps (the iLvl 63 blue 1H that seems to be aligned with the FAP "zero" for scaling purposes) from the rogue weapons nor added 55 dps to the druid FAP (base paw) before doing percentage calculations in upgrades. (Not that one should do both, but either would seem appropriate if trying to do a percentage-wise-upgrade comparison for weapon damage, the choice of which depending on what the comparison would be used for, but adding base paw making most sense in most circumstances)
Your point stands, of course, but that percentage trickery Dejablue seems to have inadvertently used makes for truly weird results. Doing it for e.g. two of the lowest iLvl Feral weapons, [Angerstaff] (81) and [Primal Lore-Staff] (87) (and let's assume they have an awful suffix that doesn't add to their combat stats) that's a HUGE increase of 28 AP (2 white dps) for a whopping 28/46 ~ 60.9% upgrade while a poor rogue's mainhand (again without combat stats) going from green iLvl 81 to 87 only increases from 44.6 dps to 46.7 dps, a mere 2.0-2.1 dps upgrade (depending on rounding), i.e, at BEST, 2.1/44.6 ~ 4.7% upgrade.... One could, based on that, reach the false conclusion that druid weapons scaled much better than rogue weapons percentage-wise - a good example of how one should be careful with percentages. 
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07/27/07, 12:21 PM
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#193
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Von Kaiser
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The two bolded percentage values are absolutley not related to each other. You compare a "AP-increase":AP ratio to a "dps-increase":AP ratio, but there is the factor 14 between AP and dps.
So the 28AP increase is equal to 2dps, which gives you 2/46 ~4.3% upgrade which is pretty similar to the 4.7% you stated for rogues.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the base paw dps can be left out since it stay regardless of the upgrade.
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07/27/07, 1:29 PM
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#194
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Scarlet Crusade
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Err, not quite. You shouldn't convert it to 2 dps but divide it by 46 AP anyway. However, you can divide it by the Druid's paw damage with the Angerstaff (which, without any stats or anything else, is 57). That will produce a percentage upgrade which is in fact less than the rogue example. Either way, that's sort of the point that Deliverance was getting at.
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07/27/07, 1:45 PM
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#195
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Dejablue
I don't think it will change. The MO seems to be Ferals are tanks for everyone to level while the warriors are fury and then we OT for a bit in raids and are pushed out in the last instance of the end game while everyone else gets their uber shiny epics and legendarys.
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I hear the sky is falling.
In all seriousness, my guild is just about to start work on Mother Shahraz in Black Temple and has completed Hyjal. That's 5/5 in Hyjal and 6/9 down in BT. We typically have two feral druids in our raids. When they aren't off-tanking, they're DPSing. In my experience, ferals are particularly awesome for Bloodboil and RoS as offtanks. Either my guild is some exception to the rule or the future is not as bleak as you make it seem.
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