Feral Attack Power: When good intentions go dumb. - Page 2

• sadris · 05/21/07, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

My point? Druids provide many things in PvE that rogues don't - the reason why people bring rogues to SSC is because they need the damage output we provide. Therefore, rogue dps *needs* to be higher than feral dps, or our role would be totally coopted. Plus, as I menetioned previously, the fact that your weapon damage doesn't scale as well as a 2H weapon doesn't mean for certain that your raid dps will not.

Get out. This isn't a Rogue vs Druid debate. This is about the calculation (or miscalculation) of feral attack power when applied to two-handers of sacrificed base DPS. If you want to complain about your class' lack of utility then make a thread for it; this thread is for itemization.

Originally Posted by dukes

When you consider that the stats on Terestians adds 38 str and 37 agility, it's a direct conversion to 128.2 AP and nearly 1.5% crit, ignoring BoK. When you consider the stats of, say, Emerald Ripper + Malchazeen (50AP+15hit, 19agi+36AP, similar stam) then the direct equivalent in stats is maybe 10-15% difference. According to your karazhan equivalent up there, Terestians is 10%ish less powerful than Despair in direct dps->FAP equivalent.

I'm not saying this is the entire reason for the difference, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's being taken in to account at least slightly.

An interesting point, but take a look at a much simpler comparison (i.e.: without a proc):
Gladiator's Maul (iLevel 115)
67.2dps
+32 Strength
+48 Stamina
Improves hit rating by 17.
Improves critical strike rating by 32.
Improves your resilience rating by 25.
Increases feral attack power by 654

Gladiator's Bonegrinder (iLevel 115)
115.1dps
+32 Strength
+48 Stamina
Improves hit rating by 17.
Improves critical strike rating by 32.
Improves your resilience rating by 25.

Based on this, the stats on an item are not even taken into account for the amount of FAP which is allowed. As such, the iLevel determines only what the base DPS should be and how many stats it should have. If Blizzard decides to make it a FAP weapon, then they take off an (arbitrary??) amount of base DPS and converts it to feral attack power. If, by your theory, that the base stats somehow influence the amount of added FAP then these two items should not be identical, which isn't the case.

dukes · 05/21/07, 4:12 PM

As true as that is, the stats on those items convert better for druids, which was my point (more than the fact that stats make up for things directly). i.e. that 32 strength is worth more to a cat than any other melee class. Same with the stamina, it converts to more stamina for a bear than for any other class.

Obviously, gladiator weapons are slightly "gimped" in this respect as they don't offer as much in terms of "convertable" stats. Unfortunately, they're also the best weapons to use for direct comparison because of the way they're designed.

I also think the amount of FAP isn't arbitary, but directly linked to ilevel. It would appear that way at least.

• sadris · 05/21/07, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

As true as that is, the stats on those items convert better for druids, which was my point (more than the fact that stats make up for things directly). i.e. that 32 strength is worth more to a cat than any other melee class. Same with the stamina, it converts to more stamina for a bear than for any other class.

Yes but not all Druids have HOTW, and it is a perfectly fine assumption to make that resto Druids may, at some point, loot a feral weapon. Why should their upgrade path be in a state of perpetual decline? Similarily, a prot Warrior may loot a two-handed weapon; they wouldn't complain that its undervalued because fury Warriors get more out of it (Imp Berserker Stance). As stated in my original post, do not take into account talents or self-buffs as the evaluation of the weapons must be done alongside other weapons, not alongside other weapons plus talents.

One could say that Warriors get 10% less AP than Druids per point of strength, but their Deep Wounds talent would make up for it and as such, their base weapon DPS should be lowered.

tedv · 05/21/07, 4:25 PM

Not to muddy the waters any more, but Shred (225% damage for 42 energy) also scales better than Backstab (150% damage for 60 energy with bonus crit), although druids lack Slice and Dice. I won't say more because I honestly haven't run the numbers, but the situation is a great deal more complex than can be analyzed based on bonus Feral Attack Power values alone.

Exewut · 05/21/07, 4:31 PM

Weaponspeed.

1,7 vs 1,0

stampy · 05/21/07, 4:34 PM

Why dont druid weapons add DPS in the same amount as for classes that use the weapon damage? Easy... druids get much more from base stats.

This chart assumes that druid has heart of the wild and survival of the fittest. I'm actually not sure whether these stack additively or multiplicatively for strength, so I assumed additive... the least beneficial to the druid. For other classes, I assumed all talents that increased stat effectiveness were taken (without needing more than 61 talent points, no imp zerker stance + vitality), and I even counted blessing of kings for pallies as a self-buff, even though it can obviously be cast on druids.

           Druid   Rogue   Warrior   Paladin
AP/Str:     2.46       1       2.2      2.42
AP/Agi:     1.03       1         0         0
Crit/Agi: 0.0412   0.025    0.0303     0.044

Percent Improvement in Druid Scaling:
                   Rogue   Warrior   Paladin
AP/Str:             146%     11.8%        1%
AP/Agi:               3%  infinite  infinite
Crit/Agi:          64.8%       36%     -6.4%

Those numbers dwarf your concerns over 14%.

Indeed, druids do not get quite the same benefit from feral dps stats as weapon-using classes get from base dps. But, the weapon using classes dont get nearly the same benefit that druids get for base stats. And though you can make a (mildly faulty) case that paladins get similar scaling, if you complain about being outdpsed by a paladin of any spec, you should be forced to reroll or at least never spec feral again.

If I were to come in here and claim that warriors should get 1 AP per agi, and only need 25 agi per 1% crit, it would be quickly identified as pure crap... and warriors still wouldnt be getting the same scaling druids do. Complaining that druids dont get enough contribution from weapons is the same flavor of whine.

Lord BEEF · 05/21/07, 4:36 PM

It's clear that druids don't get as much "weapon dps" as other classes, but that number in and of itself is completely meaningless.

Your fear is that druids won't scale as well with gear as other classes, but unless you can demonstrate that the percentage gap between a "dps cat" and other damage classes increases from each tier of gear, complaining about a lack of weapon dps is pointless.

If a druid in tier 4 does 15% less damage than a rogue in tier 4, but 30% less damage when both are in tier 6 then there's a real cause for concern. If it's still 15% then it's working as intended

Lord BEEF · 05/21/07, 4:40 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Yes but not all Druids have HOTW, and it is a perfectly fine assumption to make that resto Druids may, at some point, loot a feral weapon. Why should their upgrade path be in a state of perpetual decline?

I have yet to see a situation arise where a resto druid would need to use feral damage in any situation that really matters. There's no need in pvp, and unless a boss comes around that forces you into cat form to solo something there's no need in pve.

nfw · 05/21/07, 4:44 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Yes but not all Druids have HOTW, and it is a perfectly fine assumption to make that resto Druids may, at some point, loot a feral weapon. Why should their upgrade path be in a state of perpetual decline? Similarily, a prot Warrior may loot a two-handed weapon; they wouldn't complain that its undervalued because fury Warriors get more out of it (Imp Berserker Stance). As stated in my original post, do not take into account talents or self-buffs as the evaluation of the weapons must be done alongside other weapons, not alongside other weapons plus talents.

One could say that Warriors get 10% less AP than Druids per point of strength, but their Deep Wounds talent would make up for it and as such, their base weapon DPS should be lowered.

How can we not take talents into account? The game is balanced around talents+gear+synergy, unless you routinely go into fights with just your weapons equipped, with a 0/0/0 spec.

If every piece of feral gear is perfectly balanced against other melee classes, feral druids would then simply be overpowered after taking their talents into account.

Kazanir · 05/21/07, 4:50 PM

What Beef said. This is a difference in distribution that is (probably; no one ever said that the devs know these kind of nuances as well as these boards do) just going to shift how much of our damage is due to a weapon upgrade. Once upon a time I ran some very rudimentary numbers with an old warrior spreadsheet and found out that weapons are worth about 30% of that warriors damage. Now you've shown that our weaponry doesn't scale as well...but our gear definitely scales a lot better. A point of Agi is worth about 2.8 AP to me. Strength is worth a little less. No other class gets that kind of crazy scaling from basic stats, but we get basic stats in abundance on our gear (now, finally.) So our gear scales better and weapons scale worse. That just shifts the distribution of how much of our damage is "caused" by each slot. That's not a bad thing necessarily -- just different. As Beef said, unless there is a percentage-wise changing gap that can be proportionally related to average gear level, this aspect on its own is meaningless.

Feorthas · 05/21/07, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

If a druid in tier 4 does 15% less damage than a rogue in tier 4, but 30% less damage when both are in tier 6 then there's a real cause for concern. If it's still 15% then it's working as intended

I have yet to see a situation arise where a resto druid would need to use feral damage in any situation that really matters. There's no need in pvp, and unless a boss comes around that forces you into cat form to solo something there's no need in pve.

Well put.

To continue the analogy of Druid -> Rogue, a Resto Druid using a Feral weapon should expect diminished utility of that weapon just as a dagger rogue should expect diminished utility from using a Sword rather than a Dagger.

The amount that the utility is diminished may be vastly different between Dagger w/Sword Rogue vs Resto w/Feral weapon but.... same (very) basic idea.

stampy · 05/21/07, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Yes but not all Druids have HOTW, and it is a perfectly fine assumption to make that resto Druids may, at some point, loot a feral weapon. Why should their upgrade path be in a state of perpetual decline?

HotW is a fundamental feral DPS talent. A warrior could spec arms and not pick up mortal strike, and run around auto attacking every 3.6s; but that would make him stupid, not nerfed.

Resto druids arent built to do melee dps. A resto speced druid should see scaling declines in his melee dps ability as compared to feral druids or any other class who spec for melee dps; otherwise, what is the point of having specs in the first place?

Don't confuse being a moron with needing a buff.

Similarily, a prot Warrior may loot a two-handed weapon; they wouldn't complain that its undervalued because fury Warriors get more out of it (Imp Berserker Stance). As stated in my original post, do not take into account talents or self-buffs as the evaluation of the weapons must be done alongside other weapons, not alongside other weapons plus talents.

A prot warrior who is running around with a two handed weapon, despite no instant (except ww I guess), and getting no benefit from one handed weapon spec or devastate, is also quite stupid. Two handed weapons are useless to a protection warrior... and that is why we dont complain that its undervalued. We understand that we are not meant to do certain things, such as swinging two handers; there is no point in trying to do something you are specifically specced to be bad at, and then complaining that youre bad at it.

Again, don't confuse being a moron with needing a buff.

One could say that Warriors get 10% less AP than Druids per point of strength, but their Deep Wounds talent would make up for it and as such, their base weapon DPS should be lowered.

One could also say that warriors get 19% less AP than druids per strength if deep wounds is capable of doing any damage at all. Any spec that can use a two hander has no +10% attack power or +10% strength talent.

To be fair, a warrior with 500 str and a gorehowl does in fact get a bigger gain from deep wounds than they would from 10% str or ap. However, a warrior with 500 str, 250 agi, and a gorehowl would see MASSIVELY better dps getting 1 AP per agi on top of strength than they would see from deep wounds.

• Aldriana · 05/21/07, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Get out. This isn't a Rogue vs Druid debate. This is about the calculation (or miscalculation) of feral attack power when applied to two-handers of sacrificed base DPS. If you want to complain about your class' lack of utility then make a thread for it; this thread is for itemization.

The problem is that discussing itemization outside the context of the abilities using them is totally and completely meaningless. It's like saying MS warriors do more damage than rogues because they're swinging 120 dps 2H weapons while rogues are using 90 dps weapons. Itemization by itself doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. It's itemization in the context of class abilities that matters.

And, for the record, I wasn't trying to start a rogue vs druid thing. I was just pointing out the previous poster who was asserting that rogues have more utility in raids because we can sap was full of it. Which is true. Not totally relevant to the topic at hand, but then again, as just discussed, almost nothing in this thread is actually relevant to the question at hand so I didn't figure that should disqualify me from responding to it. Besides, if you'd actually read my post, you'd note that I wasn't (as you assert) complaining, simply asserting the relative benefits of the two classes.

Besides which, it *is* a useful question to consider. The question at hand is whether druids are going to remain viable in the long hall, and the answer to that question depends on a) scaling of dps vs other dps class and b) scaling of tps vs other tanking classes - both of which are related to the weapon damage assertions, but also c) on how important the druid utility skills will be in the long haul. If, as a stupid example, after some point all raid encounters need only one tank, then the feral druid tank vs dps utility matters significantly less, and their damage would need to increase for them to remain useful.

Long story short: to get a useful answer to an actually interesting question (namely, are feral druids going to scale well enough to remain viable into the indefenitely future), one must consider all facets of the question - not just those that specifically refer to weapon itemization. Because if all you want to do is discuss the scaling of weapons per se, I can answer that easily. Druid weapons don't scale as well. Proof: read first post. That said: this only matters if it actually converts to a loss of raid viability in time, which requires inspection of these other issues that are being raised.

• sadris · 05/21/07, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by nfw

If every piece of feral gear is perfectly balanced against other melee classes, feral druids would then simply be overpowered after taking their talents into account.

Okay, I'll bite. If the Pillar of Ferocity was re-evaluated so that the amount of FAP added onto the weapon was based off 55 + FAP/14 = 130.5, you get an increase of 231 AP from its current value. 231 AP for a feral specced Druid does the following for a 12 second Mangle cycle assuming 1 Shred crit:

4 shreds = 148.5 more damage
:: 231/14 * 2.25 * 4

10 auto attacks (2 removed due to swapping Idols and subsequent GCD) = 165 more damage
:: 231/14 * 10

1 full duration Rip = 55.4 more damage
:: 231 * 0.24

1 Mangle = 26.4 more damage
:: 231/14 * 1.6

Total increased DPS in a 12sec cycle is therefore: 395.3/12 = 32.9dps

Now go back to a time when FAP was "almost" balanced: the Staff of Beasts. If the staff was re-evaluated for base form DPS, you get an increase of 73 AP. For a 12sec DPS cycle:

4 shreds = 46.9 more damage
10 auto attacks = 52.1 more damage
1 full duration Rip = 17.5 more damage
1 Mangle = 8.3 more damage

Total increased DPS in a 12sec cycle is therefore: 124.8/12 = 10.4dps

In a time when fully consumabled Rogues can push over 1200 DPS and full consumabled Druids can barely get 1000*, 10-33 extra DPS before armor would not "overpower" us (whatever that even means).

Don't spew forth Blizzard-forum retardation without backing it up with numbers, please.

* http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/w...822/index.html

Jayde · 05/21/07, 8:05 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

In a time when fully consumabled Rogues can push over 1200 DPS and full consumabled Druids can barely get 1000*, 10-33 extra DPS before armor would not "overpower" us (whatever that even means).

On the flip-side, a difference of 10-33 DPS at those levels is somewhat negligible in and of itself--so, if it wouldn't "overpower" Druids, I doubt it will "underpower" them either.

Comparing AP on weapons to weapon DPS is an interesting excersize given the general intent of the stat on the items, but really it's somewhat apples to oranges. The end result of itemization philosophy is more important, all-around.

One could easily point out that Druid AP generally tends to scale quicker than Rogues due to higher contribution of base stats and HotW... but, again, the end result of DPS is all that matters really.

It's honestly a bit hard to directly compare Druid "weapons" to anything else, because they operate as a 1h class with Rogue-like abilities. This means a Druid doesn't have to dump into +hit like Rogues and thus can stack more AP and Crit as a general rule. With such considerations to make, it's quite hard just to look at the base weapon AP and draw any meaningful conclusions.