This is still irrelevant when comparing direct weapon DPS issues. Having 2h weapon DPS while tanking/basically having a shield equipped is a bit strange.

(Although, to the support of people saying "it really doesn't matter", your points about Warriors doing more TPS despite to fact that the Druid weapon is higher DPS are as valid as the people saying that Druid FAP/weapon DPS scaling really has little to do with the end result of relative Catform DPS.)

You are assuming all I do is sit back and shoot, which represents a huge loss of DPS for me in the first place. (nevermind the weapon damage based abilities hunters have) It's as pointless as talking about feral druids melee dps in caster form.

So? Given your conscious decision of ignoring all the counterpoints presented so far, and your unwillingness to discuss feral druid mechanics that make them scale as well (if not better) than other melee classes. Your post is nothing but a longwinded "QQ woe-is-me" rant.

The basic problem with this thread is that it is trying to single out feral AP on weapons as an exact source.

Weapons are just another part of gear. You can't single out one item and say "this item doesn't scale as well in the long run", and you're doing even MORE than that in saying that FAP, one single constituent which we don't even know how they are calculating, doesn't scale as well. It just doesn't work like that, and as someone just pointed out, each individual class tends to fluctuate as blizzard sort out issues rather than all being on a flat curve that slowly increases all the time.

So, the quick summary of the thread so far:

1. Feral Weapons are getting less iLevel value than comparable weapons for other classes.
2. #1 doesn't matter because items aren't balanced, classes are, included talents, etc. What matters is the end of the day dps/heal/etc result vis-a-vis other classes.

So lets add in another data point, to address, partially, the objection raised in point #2.

Example: PvP Gear/Weapons

I'll have to search for the thread that addressed this, but using iLevels, I remember it being shown that Druid PvP gear was given 20% less stamina than would be expected; i.e. it was under iLevel budget compared to ALL the other Gladiator sets. The easy answer to this was that Druids were given gear that would EQUAL other classes "IF" they had the Heart of the Wild Talent.

Similarly, PVP/Gladiator weapon dps was innately less and a druid HAD to have the +10% damage talent in order to get EQUAL dps to other classes.

So, now you have not just 1 item, but an entire "armor" set that appears to be unfair.

Here is a link to the thread previously discussing the FAP issue, and the numbers re: druid pvp items.

A thread full of druids. (Formerly "The point of Feral Attack power?")

Overall, I think the response "Druids are fine now, so shut up unless you can do more math, factor in talents, etc. to show us that you aren't relatively equal to a pure dps class" misses the point. The OP's point, as far as I can tell is: "Druids get items that are under iLevel budget compared to other classes and this is NOT fair." I couldn't agree more with that sentiment. If folks want to think its pure QQ, ask yourselves if you would want underbudget items and want to just "trust" that the developers have already balanced feral items around the fact that feral talents/class skills are so OP that they make up for the underbudget items and at the end of the day leave ferals in a 'relatively' balanced position vis-a-vis other pure classes.

I was wondering about. In the push that lowered item budget costs of +Armor the Druid set did not gain any additional stats as they should have. They did however gain additional stats in one of the latest pushs when they buffed ILVLs. Where are the missing stats? Were they included in the +ILVL push as a stealth buff or were just forgotten?

I was hoping you knew Liar, as the link I put in to provide "context" for this thread was largely based on your numbers, right?

People keep saying Armor costs less now, was there a blue post indicating this? It really just seems to me they did fixed the values of Sta on some items, and made other items as good as they're supposed to be (taking t4 up ~10 iLevels iirc)

Alright, was gonna try and keep my snout out of this, but it's beginning to irk me.

To almost every physical DPS class, there exists 2 kinds of gear upgrades; armor, and weapon. The main difference between these 2 (for all but one physical DPS class) is that armor upgrades provide you mainly with statistical increases, be it crit, stam, etc. Armor upgrades are usually the items that are affected by talents the most.

However, weapon DPS upgrades, for every class but one, represent an actual increase in the BASE DPS OF THAT INDIVIDUAL. Because of this, weapons are the single most effective way to 'increase your DPS' through gear progression.

Obviously, this isn't the case for druids, we've been at 55'claw' DPS for quite some time, and, barring some intervention, will remain at 55 base DPS. Blizzard recognized this, and attempted to fix it. Their solution, being FAP, was implemented with 1Hers, and was easy to math out to effectively 'raise' our base 55 DPS up to whatever the ilvl standard was of that particular item.

Unfortunately, the switch to 2Hers did not fare as well, because of Moonkin. This whole problem that Sadris has brought up, is because of some retarded mechanic regarding melee swings and mana regen. It is extremely obvious that they are paying way too much attention to the actual DPS of these 2Hers with Moonkin in mind, and adjusting the FAP from the baseline of a Moonkin's benefit.

The problem is, a portion of the 'weapon DPS', regardless of talents is completely and utterly wasted on a cat/bear, because the weapons themselves are being balanced around actually being swung.

I really don't see how anyone has a problem seeing what Sadris is explaining.

Yes. And because druid feral DPS scales better with stats than any other class, they consequently get more DPS benefit from their armour than any other class. That's why they get less net benefit from upgrading their weapon - to keep things balanced when you upgrade your whole equipment.

Looking at a single slot doesn't give you the right picture.

This is completely correct. However since druids do get more per stat point (in terms of AP per Str/Agi, Crit per agi etc) if the rest of the druid's gear were properly itemized (which is a completely different discussion) then what we "lose" in our weapons would be made up for in the other gear, compared to other classes. E.g., Our weapon gives 6% increase in power and our chest piece gives a 4% increase in power, whereas for a Rogue the weapon may give an 8% increase and the chest only a 2% increase (talking all the same ilvl of appropriate gear here).

I honestly don't remember saying that the Gladiator Set was underbudgeted but saying that we got the least Stamina out of it from all classes (Insert reference to HotW).

I am going by the patch notes:

And by the fact that things like Chestguard of the Talon had their stats and armor increased without becoming a higher ILVL item (same applies to the Felsteel Plate Armor set (http://thottbot.com/test/i23517 , http://thottbot.com/test/i23519 , http://thottbot.com/test/i23518).

I do get where you are coming from though, because the exalted [Edit] Karazhan [/EDIT] tanking ring got 2 buffs in this patch, one from becoming a higher ILVL item and second from having the armor modifier. It probably must have looked like it was only just 1 buff happening (the one from the increase of ILVL) and not 2 which it is in reality.