The point isn't that we don't scale, when I get DPS upgrades, they are DPS upgrades.
The point is that the first time a rogue goes up by 50 dps from upgrades, a druid goes up 45, however the second time the rogue goes up 50, the druid only goes up 40 then 35 then 30 then 25 etc. By the time a rogue is doing 2000 dps (not likely to occur but I'm already exaggerating) instead of doing 1800 the druid is doing 1500. On any fight that doesn't involve me tanking, I will be sitting out for a better DPS class.
(note: not the actual numbers)
If this were actually the case, I agree that it would be a problem. But, allow me to reitterate: I have seen no evidence that this actually occurs. There has been no calculations in this thread that discuss anything about the scaling of actual DPS.
As for your argument that the spreadsheet isn't accurate from your experience, that's usually due to armor not being factored on spreadsheets as well as a boss that is stationary with no adds, aoe, deaggro, or other gimmicks that would require a rogue to stop attacking ever.
The sustained factor is not what I'm referring too; On tidewalker the highest dps number I ever posted was ~1200, which was a 30%-ish wipe where I was never tombed. The spreadsheet at that time was suggesting that I should be sustaining 1600+. I haven't had a chance to verify the damage numbers lately since the spreadsheet has the 2.1 upgrades in it and I haven't done tidewalker since the patch, but my impression is that it's still generating too-high numbers. It's not a sustained vs interrupted thing; it just reports overly large numbers. And regardless of the exact source of those overly large numbers, if you compare a druid to a rogue model that overestimates damage by 20%, yes, druids are going to look poor by comparison.
Increase from iLevel 84 to iLevel 105
Feral 10.2
2-H 13.2
1-H 10.0
Increase from iLevel 105 to iLevel 120
Feral 9.3
2-H 12.1
1-H 9.2
So rounding errors aside at level 60 we were working with the equivalent of 2-H weapons in terms of base DPS. As we moved to 70 the shift in the base DPS of the weapon is causing some of the iLevel DPS gain to not get converted to FAP and we're effectively getting the gains of 1-H weapons. As iLevel goes from 84 to infinity feral druid paw DPS goes from that of a 2-H weapon to that of a 1-H weapon.
I'd call that a pretty significant oversight on the part of Blizzard's development team. Feral weapons need to stay at 55.4 DPS with the rest of the appropriate iLevel DPS converted into FAP.
As we moved to 70 the shift in the base DPS of the weapon is causing some of the iLevel DPS gain to not get converted to FAP and we're effectively getting the gains of 1-H weapons. As iLevel goes from 84 to infinity feral druid paw DPS goes from that of a 2-H weapon to that of a 1-H weapon.
I'd call that a pretty significant oversight on the part of Blizzard's development team. Feral weapons need to stay at 55.4 DPS with the rest of the appropriate iLevel DPS converted into FAP.
The slopes of the 3 lines are respectively (please note that this is effective DPS for the feral weapons):
Two-handers: 0.593381924
Feral staves: 0.4631988
Daggers: 0.460963384
All the comparisons of abilities between classes is beside the point for this. It all breaks down to:
<snip>
Problem is: no, it really doesn't. The fact that the weapons in some sense scale more poorly matters only if the resulting damage output is subpar, and for that, class abilities must be considered. If you don't consider all class abilities, you might conclude that ret pallies do more damage than hunters because their weapons are 50% higher dps. Whether or not one particular piece of gear scales better than another for another class isn't useful information for determining whether one class is scaling more poorly or not; in order to determine that, one must consider *all* pieces of gear and *all* class abilities to see how well the classes are realizing the damage potential of their gear.
Problem is: no, it really doesn't. The fact that the weapons in some sense scale more poorly matters only if the resulting damage output is subpar, and for that, class abilities must be considered. ....
Certainly class abilities come into play in the end result, but each class has a miriad of abilities that affect their actual dps and in general they end up balancing out.
Based on Feral weapons at Level 60 druids were balanced around them using 2-H DPS equivalent paws. However, they're scaling as if they were 1-H. Imagine if warriors could only use "warrior only" 2-H weapons and the base DPS for those weapons went up at the same rate as the base DPS of daggers for rogues...that is the situation druids are in right now.
Certainly class abilities come into play in the end result, but each class has a miriad of abilities that affect their actual dps and in general they end up balancing out.
Based on Feral weapons at Level 60 druids were balanced around them using 2-H DPS equivalent paws. However, they're scaling as if they were 1-H. Imagine if warriors could only use "warrior only" 2-H weapons and the base DPS for those weapons went up at the same rate as the base DPS of daggers for rogues...that is the situation druids are in right now.
You're making an assumption that they balance out, which I'm not sure that there's evidence for. I'm not saying that there isn't a problem; I'm just saying that the problem will not be exposed without looking at stats on other slots and the effect of their abilities.
One of the problems is that all the BC feral weapons are two-handers, and you compare them to two-handers. Casters and healers have +spells and +healing on their weapons, both 1-handers and 2-handers, that eat only in the DPS of their weapons without using item budget.
Let's have a look at that, shall we?
So, casters sacrifice 30.3 DPS for 121 spell power, 4 (3.99339...) spell power per DPS. Healers sacrifice 30.3 DPS for 227 healing, 7.5 (7.491479...) healing per DPS. Druids sacrifice 30.3 DPS for 423 feral ap, 14 (13.96039...) feral ap per DPS.
Sacrificed DPS is the same for one-handers and two-handers, and it's based on reducing the DPS of a level-equivalent 1-handed DPS weapon to ~41.4 DPS.
41.4 is the DPS of ilvl 63 1-handers that require level 58 to use. Dal'Rend's and Finkle's Skinner for example.
A 2-hander will sacrifice the same amount of DPS as a one-hander. Since 2-hander DPS rises faster than 1-hander DPS, this means that the physical DPS of caster/healer/druid 2-handers will increase. Not because blizzard hates you, but because DPS reduction is determined by 1-handers.
Fast forward to SSC and TK, ilvl 128 epic items:
(I found no caster staves or healer maces at ilvl 128)
Hm, maybe my calculated number for healing:dps is a bit off, or the healing staff is lacking ~5 healing. Let's just assume that the healing staff has ~52.2 DPS sacrificed as well (instead of the 386/7.5=51.5 I calculated there).
The result is that caster, healer and druid weapons have the same DPS increase in their stats over a level 60 blue that a 1-handed weapon for melee DPS has over their ilvl 63 blue weapons from T0 zones.
Casters, healers, ferals and 1-handed melee get a 52.2 DPS upgrade over their old T0 level 1-handers. Looks pretty balanced to me.
Is it fair that we get +4 spells, +7.5 healing, +14 feral ap for one point of sacrifices DPS? Do some classes/specs benefit from this ratio, or should the ratio be tweaked? And why isn't it based on 2-handers (my answer would be that 1handed caster weapon would go below 0 physical DPS sooner or later), or should 2-hander DPS scale 1:1 with 1-hander DPS?
I don't know, and I can't tell either. The game has become far too complex to balance everything around each and everything. I can only state how things probably were set up with this mechanic, and how it's perfectly balanced in its kind of way.
TLDR
Feral, caster and healing weapon bonus scales exactly like level-equivalent 1-handed weapons. They scale exactly like everyone who uses 1-handers, i.e. tanks, fury warriors, enhancement shaman and rogues.
The reason that the physical DPS of 2-handers with sacrificed DPS increases is simply that 2-hander DPS rises faster than 1-hander DPS.
The increased pysical DPS on those 2-handers does not mean that you wasted spell/healing/feral power on it.
It means that you got exactly the spell/healing/feral power you deserve (from 1-hander comparison), but the remaining physical DPS of the 2-handers is simply higher than that of a 1-hander.
That's at least my stance how I see the scaling balanced.
You're making an assumption that they balance out, which I'm not sure that there's evidence for. I'm not saying that there isn't a problem; I'm just saying that the problem will not be exposed without looking at stats on other slots and the effect of their abilities.
Does an equivalently geared druid do significantly more DPS than a rogue, dps warrior, or enhancement shaman? If not, then the abilities DO currently more or less balance out only the druid is on a slower scaling path since he's working with a 2-H base dps that is getting 1-H dps gains. If the difference now in DPS is appropriate then the scaling level needs to be fixed. If the difference now is not appropriate then the base AND the scaling needs to be fixed.
Does an equivalently geared druid do significantly more DPS than a rogue, dps warrior, or enhancement shaman? If not, then the abilities DO currently more or less balance out only the druid is on a slower scaling path since he's working with a 2-H base dps that is getting 1-H dps gains. If the difference now in DPS is appropriate then the scaling level needs to be fixed. If the difference now is not appropriate then the base AND the scaling needs to be fixed.
Either way, the scaling needs fixing.
Rogues weapons scale as 1Hers. Druid weapons scale as 1Hers. Via class abilities, rogues convert this to some amount of dps. Druids convert this to some other, lower amount of DPS. There is a conversion function. It generates smaller numbers. This does not prove that it scales more poorly. It sounds to me like druid weapons scale quite similarly to rogue weapons; hence if the damage is comperable right now, what basis is there for believeing that druids will be unable to convert their weapon damage into dps at the same efficiency?
The slopes of the 3 lines are respectively (please note that this is effective DPS for the feral weapons):
Two-handers: 0.593381924
Feral staves: 0.4631988
Daggers: 0.460963384
Doesn't this pretty much end the weapon slot discussion right here?
Both rogue weapons and druid weapons scale at roughly the same rate.
if druid DPS = A*effective_weapon_AP
rogue DPS = B*effective_weapon_AP
and A/B is constant (say 90%), then whats the big problem?
Feral staffs are two-handed weapons and as such, should be compared to other two-handers for the purpose of evaluating the allotment of feral attack power. The amount of damage which a cat Druid does could be compared to a Rogue, which would be independent of specific items, but an overview of all stats on said Druid.
It means that you got exactly the spell/healing/feral power you deserve (from 1-hander comparison), but the remaining physical DPS of the 2-handers is simply higher than that of a 1-hander.
But... Rogues get two 1-hand weapons. They can upgrade both.
But... Rogues get two 1-hand weapons. They can upgrade both.
The end problem of druids not scaling their DPS at the same rate as rogues comes from Dual Wield vs a 2h scaling like a 1h and overall itemization.
One thing to remember about the whole "druids use a 2h that scales like a 1h" is that we used to have 1h that scaled like 1h and could at least use a offhand.
Upgrading one dagger from 41 to 82 DPS is a 100% increase. Upgrading two weapons from 41 t 82 DPS is a 200% increase then?
Is upgrading from a +41 spell damage item to a +82 spell damage item? You should know perfectly well that it's not. I understand the comparison you're trying to make, but that's a bit of a silly rhetorical question.
The OH certainly doesn't add as much DPS as the MH, but it does add significantly more than druids are getting from the "bonus stats a 2h has over 2 1h"
Is upgrading from a +41 spell damage item to a +82 spell damage item? You should know perfectly well that it's not. I understand the comparison you're trying to make, but that's a bit of a silly rhetorical question.
The OH certainly doesn't add as much DPS as the MH, but it does add significantly more than druids are getting from the "bonus stats a 2h has over 2 1h"
Ah, you mean you have to consider the effects of class abilities and other gear when figuring out how weapon damage relates to actual dps?
The end problem of druids not scaling their DPS at the same rate as rogues comes from Dual Wield vs a 2h scaling like a 1h and overall itemization.
One thing to remember about the whole "druids use a 2h that scales like a 1h" is that we used to have 1h that scaled like 1h and could at least use a offhand.
I think that druids running around with 2H Mauls seems to fit a bit nicer when we do actually see the weapons. Presumably the reason they switched it to a 2H was so they didn't have to go around and itemise feral offhands as well. IIRC there weren't really any decent off hands for a feral druid, and with a 2H we can (in theory at least) get more suitable stats. Theoretically they could still create feral 1H and the existing ones weren't immediately broken on release of TBC.
The AP = 1H AP is probably what they always used when balancing druid feral dps when levelling, so it makes sense to scale FAP with item level/quality in exactly the same way.
As has been pointed out here before, this is also what happens with caster weapons, the 2H with bonuses don't suddenly game more +spell effect as a result of being a 2H rather than a 1H, what they gain is more stats, and while we can't stack FAP on the weapon with FAP on an offhand like a caster can, we can instead double dip and stack FAP with strength or AP. (caster weapons never seem to have more than the base weapon amount of +spell/heal)
There is still some questions that needs to be examined of course, does a feral druid keep up their scaling with improved gear?. My guess would be no for both feral dps and tanking, at least with the available itemisation. Now maybe the solution to that is to to change the way that base (weapon + level) feral dps scales, but it seems to me that the feral druid is a different beast altogether, and that switching just FAP over to the value given by (arbitary) 2Hers isn't necessarily going to neccessarily help in the long run.
In any case, with such a complex system overall, they probably just balance things with some sort of random walk adjustment until things seem right
Feral staffs are two-handed weapons and as such, should be compared to other two-handers for the purpose of evaluating the allotment of feral attack power.
But this neglects the fact that you are DPSing with a two hander and tanking with the same two hander.
I understand perfectly the point that you are making in our OP. That the growing "raw" weapon DPS is being left untouched by feral DPS or feral tanks. That this somehow looks to be an oversight. Maybe. It seems that way.
But at the same time I just can't see that you want your DPS weapons to scale like a 2h when in fact it is used in some situations as a 2h (DPSing) and 1h (tanking).
Could be that the compromise is some sort of middleground. I dont know.
The analysis is certainly skewed by the fact that there are none feral endgame 1h at the moment.
Is upgrading from a +41 spell damage item to a +82 spell damage item? You should know perfectly well that it's not. I understand the comparison you're trying to make, but that's a bit of a silly rhetorical question.
The OH certainly doesn't add as much DPS as the MH, but it does add significantly more than druids are getting from the "bonus stats a 2h has over 2 1h"
This is somewhat ignoring the fact that OH DPS is probably a tool with which Blizzard uses to balance Fury Warrior and Rogue DPS vs. hybrid DPS classes such as Druids.
Just because it is a "negative" for a Druid doesn't mean it's wrong or unintended, after all.
Like was pointed out by the person above and me earlier, there is a bit of give and take here--it's just as "odd" to be tanking with a 2h+Shield as it is to be using a 2h with 1h weapon balance while DPSing. That's probably why you see it as somewhere in-between.
Either way, weapon DPS is only a tool with which the class can be balanced around, and hardly the only one. The fact that FAP weapons are scaling in a logical manner is evidence that it is being considered as such, and that Druid DPS will be balanced around it in the future. There's nothing particularly screwball about it, really.
'Balanced in the future' rings the same kind of alarm bells for off-spec druids as 'awesome changes' do for warriors.
Specifically, it brings to mind images of poor scaling, neglected itemization, and total apathy from devs.
We have enough drags on our dps from split item budgets, lack of off-tier gear, and the inability to DW. I'm really not looking forward to another one, but as it stands I'm going to be using a Stranglestaff (if it ever goddamn drops) and a Wildfury (if IT ever drops, either) until the next expansion anyway.
Given that the feral tier sets are clearly designed for the role of offtanking and dpsing in the same gear when the tanking role becomes unnecessary in a given instance, why is the dps scaling of druids even being compared to "pure" dps classess? It would seem fairly clear to me that blizzard are not itemizing, or building the druid mechanics to optimize feral dps because they do not see the role of a feral druid as being a class that purely operates in cat form.
To put it another way.
The role blizzard seem to have defined for feral druids (note its feral not cat druids) is a one which.
1) Tanks almost as well as a warrior in the main tank role in a 25man raid, but not well enough that they would replace a full prot warrior as main tank for most bossess/guilds.
2) Is the best off tank in terms of TPS in a situation where you do not already have aggro.
3) Tanks better than a non-protection warrior, and deal more dps than a protection warrior so that the role or tank/dps hybrid cannot be filled as effectively if the druid is replace by a warrior.
So with that in mind, why is the dps scaling of cat druids being talked about in-vacuo, blizzard do not appear as if they are trying to balance feral druids, or their scaling, about how much dps they can do in cat form? They simply want to keep within the 3 boundaries laid out above and if they manage that they will most likely consider it a sucess.
Even if a druid in T99 is doing only 70% of a rogues dps, compared to the 85% he was doing in T4, he will still not be replaced by the rogue in that position of tank/dps hybrid. Feral druids are not, in my opinion, competing with rogues for raid viability, they are squarely competing agasint the vanilla fury warrior who could put out awesome dps, then throw on his T4 for patchwerk. In that sense feral druids are only in dainger (from a purely pve point of view), if either:
1) Content requires a fixed number of tanks for every single encounter, including trash, in a given instance.
2) Druids become so poor at tanking/ prot warriors become so good at dpsing/dps warriors become so good at tanking, that you are better off replacing the feral druid with a warrior.
The OP is interesting, but ultimately, in my opinion, meaningless in PvE, it is akin to a protection warrior complaining his dps isnt scaling as fast as rogues if he puts his dps gear on. None of the above touches upon PvP, but that is too complicated for me to comment upon so I will keep my comments to PvE content (and there more focused on 10/25 man content).
Not one person has still shown true evidence of Druids not scaling well.
Anyway, as we know ...
Feral staves: 0.4631988
Daggers: 0.460963384
... doesn't tell the whole picture because some classes dual wield. But don't just say "you dual wield!" We dual wield, lose 25%-50% of the OH's damage (depending on spec), and lose 19% hit for dual wielding.
Once again, the whole picture is being ignored to try to prove some point.
Before you start to drift, and your soul begins to scream.
I just wanted to tell you, that you're listening to a dream.
Rogues weapons scale as 1Hers. Druid weapons scale as 1Hers. Via class abilities, rogues convert this to some amount of dps. ...
Until level 60, Druid weapons scale as 2-H. Post 60 Druid scaling drops to 1-H. It's that change in scaling that means druids are now on a slower slope than their current relative position would indicate.
IMO, without any new data, this conversation is dead. Druids can identify that their weapons, and perhaps armor as well, are inefficiently itemized and under Ilevel budget. Others can point out thats just 1 data point, and doesn't mean anything in comparison with other classes and the overall scaling/dps out. One is left to wonder though if this was "warriors" proving that their "2H" weapons weren't scaling if there wouldn't be a massive outcry. Then again, maybe the same folks would point out their other abilities that compensate. Enough said. End result: 1 class spec, historically neglected, fears they will become irrelevant again. Only time will tell.
05/23/07, 5:31 PM
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