Until level 60, Druid weapons scale as 2-H. Post 60 Druid scaling drops to 1-H. It's that change in scaling that means druids are now on a slower slope than their current relative position would indicate.
It could also very well mean that pre-TBC when they were experimenting with the whole Feral Attack Power idea, they found out that the 2h itemization theory was over the top and decided to move to a 1h scaling system instead. It looks to me to be a clearly intentional decision and anything but some random fluke.
It amuses me to see the same people trolling this thread that I've seen trolling many other balance oriented threads.
Catform-only itemization doesn't exist
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with raw AP
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with FAP vsWeapon DPS
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with Str vs AP
Would you like me to prove that druids don't scale as well with Agi vs Agi? (Both classes get the same AP, which druids scale worse with, druids get slightly more crit so it's probably even)
Rogues scale better with hit rating because of DW
Rogues scale better with crit rating because of DW
I can prove those last two as well if you'd like
Between non existant itemization (just how many trinkets need ap/crit with a use:+ap anyway? where's the +35 agi with use: +135 str trinket?) and a weapon that doesn't scale based on the slot it uses, Druids will eventually not be taken for a DPS role. This gives druids an eventual 0 specs desired for DPS in raiding (lets face it, moonkin is crap still) placing us on par with Paladins who are favored for healing primary and OT secondary compared to druids as OT primary and healing secondary. As much as I hate paladins, being a "Loldps" class is the last thing I want for anyone
It amuses me to see the same people trolling this thread that I've seen trolling many other balance oriented threads.
Catform-only itemization doesn't exist
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with raw AP
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with FAP vsWeapon DPS
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with Str vs AP
Would you like me to prove that druids don't scale as well with Agi vs Agi? (Both classes get the same AP, which druids scale worse with, druids get slightly more crit so it's probably even)
Rogues scale better with hit rating because of DW
Rogues scale better with crit rating because of DW
I can prove those last two as well if you'd like
You have proved nothing, if druids and rogues scaled at the same rate than in the far limit their DPS would converge, because the base dps difference would become small relative to the overall dps from that individual. The fact that Druids scale more slowly than rogues does not prove that their relative dps is scaling more slowly, infact in the extreme limit their relative dps will tend towards the ratio at which both classess scale (not that we should reasonably expect to see that limit).
Silly example
T4 Rogue DPS = 1000
T4 Cat DPS = 800
Ratio = 8:10
If both classess scale at the same rate (i.e. they get the same dps benefits from itemization, and lets pretend they can both wear the same gear to avoid arguments over poor itemization):
So, a more slowly scaling druid, keeps his dps scaling at the same relative rate as the rogue, his dps relative to the roge has neither gone up nor down, though in absolute terms he scaled more slowly. I will state it again, you have proved nothing about the relative scaling of druid and rogue dps.
Originally Posted by Boevis
Druids will eventually not be taken for a DPS role.
And I will ask you the same questions I asked with my first post in this thread:
What makes you think, given the clear tanking bias of the tiered feral sets, that blizzard want feral druids to be taken in a pure dps role ?
There is absolutely no indication that blizzard intend for you to spend an entire raid in Cat-Form, and as such no reason to believe Blizzard want you to scale as well as or better than rogues. There appear to me to be clear signs blizzard wants feral druids to fill the old fury-warrior role of tank/dps hybrid and as such your dps scaling is only one factor in future desireability and perhaps less important than the scaling of feral druids in their tanking roles.
This gives druids an eventual 0 specs desired for DPS in raiding (lets face it, moonkin is crap still) placing us on par with Paladins who are favored for healing primary and OT secondary compared to druids as OT primary and healing secondary. As much as I hate paladins, being a "Loldps" class is the last thing I want for anyone
This is insane, feral is a tank/dps hybrid, of course nobody should ever consider taking a feral druid instead of a pure dps class.
Feral druids should be taken when you require a main tank for a hard-hitting physical dps dealing mob, when threat generation under low rage conditions is needed, and when you require the added flexibility. Feral druids also provide absolutely stellar ancilliary benefits like LotP, battlerez, innervates.
If they were balanced around just their DPS role, the added flexibility they bring to the role would make them the most overpowered class in game. For the record, the past ~3 days we have raided with at least 5 or 6 druids in the raid, 4 feral, one moonkin (who healed) and one restoration.
I also have scaling worries about cat dps, as it is my characters main focus. I had not thought of the point you brought up, but I agree. There is definitely a scaling problem there. My only guess is that Blizzard is leaving the path open to allow weapon dps to affect feral weapon dps sometime in the future. Still, I would rather they fixed feral AP weapons.
My other scaling concern is simply itemization. a quick overview of wowhead shows that in each new tier of raid progression, there is less and less dps-oriented feral gear. the Malorne set with the right other pieces makes an extremely powerful set of equipment (forget the gloves of course), but nordrassil is almost no better, and thunderheart is actually worse than nordrassil I believe. The item designers started out making combo cat/bear gear, and are leaning more and more toward bear as time goes on. The last truely dps-oriented feral weapon is sill the squidstaff. though the pillar of ferocity may be better, the item budget points could be spent MUCH better for dps. it's clearly intended to be a tanking weapon.
Given that the feral tier sets are clearly designed for the role of offtanking and dpsing in the same gear when the tanking role becomes unnecessary in a given instance, why is the dps scaling of druids even being compared to "pure" dps classess? It would seem fairly clear to me that blizzard are not itemizing, or building the druid mechanics to optimize feral dps because they do not see the role of a feral druid as being a class that purely operates in cat form.
To put it another way.
The role blizzard seem to have defined for feral druids (note its feral not cat druids) is a one which.
1) Tanks almost as well as a warrior in the main tank role in a 25man raid, but not well enough that they would replace a full prot warrior as main tank for most bossess/guilds.
2) Is the best off tank in terms of TPS in a situation where you do not already have aggro.
3) Tanks better than a non-protection warrior, and deal more dps than a protection warrior so that the role or tank/dps hybrid cannot be filled as effectively if the druid is replace by a warrior.
So with that in mind, why is the dps scaling of cat druids being talked about in-vacuo, blizzard do not appear as if they are trying to balance feral druids, or their scaling, about how much dps they can do in cat form? They simply want to keep within the 3 boundaries laid out above and if they manage that they will most likely consider it a sucess.
Even if a druid in T99 is doing only 70% of a rogues dps, compared to the 85% he was doing in T4, he will still not be replaced by the rogue in that position of tank/dps hybrid. Feral druids are not, in my opinion, competing with rogues for raid viability, they are squarely competing agasint the vanilla fury warrior who could put out awesome dps, then throw on his T4 for patchwerk. In that sense feral druids are only in dainger (from a purely pve point of view), if either:
1) Content requires a fixed number of tanks for every single encounter, including trash, in a given instance.
2) Druids become so poor at tanking/ prot warriors become so good at dpsing/dps warriors become so good at tanking, that you are better off replacing the feral druid with a warrior.
The OP is interesting, but ultimately, in my opinion, meaningless in PvE, it is akin to a protection warrior complaining his dps isnt scaling as fast as rogues if he puts his dps gear on. None of the above touches upon PvP, but that is too complicated for me to comment upon so I will keep my comments to PvE content (and there more focused on 10/25 man content).
your entire post completely assumes that bear form is the only form that even counts in raiding. this attitude is common, but I don't believe that the devs share it, because pre-ssc, pure dps feral gear DOES exist, and scales reasonably with rogues. it's only in ssc and beyond that this itemization begins to seriously drop off. I chalk it up to oversight.
your entire post completely assumes that bear form is the only form that even counts in raiding. this attitude is common, but I don't believe that the devs share it, because pre-ssc, pure dps feral gear DOES exist, and scales reasonably with rogues. it's only in ssc and beyond that this itemization begins to seriously drop off. I chalk it up to oversight.
Actually, I believe that (and other) posts are saying quite specifically: the Feral tree is balanced for having two roles in a raid in the same spec/tree, Tanking and DPS. Feral Druids are an off-tank/off-DPS spec. Honestly--and I'm sorry if this sound hasrh--if you can't accept that, you aren't paying attention.
Just the other day, our Druid class leader was giddy in remarking to me after our post-patch Magtheridon raid about how he managed so-and-so large amount of AP/crit in DPS/gladiator gear while also having 18k HP in Bearform and being uncrittable for tanking the first Summoner. He ended up 5th or 6th on damage meters DPSing after tanking. I've seen him as high as 4th on Gruul, and I've seen him win damage while full-time DPSing in certain fights in 5 and 10-man group content.
Feral Druids are more or less REQUIRED in raids right now, due to the pathetic stacking of Protection spec Warriors and the mix of fights that need many tanks but also high DPS. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Druids will not stay viable over the long haul.
Honestly, the Druid community has been doomsaying for the last 6 months about the viability of Druids over the long-haul, yet every new patch solidifies the role of Feral Druids in both group and raid content. My first character was a Druid, and I can fully understand the trauma of being the lowest DPS class in the game for a very long time...however, that time is not now.
It's quite obvious that the devs are keeping an eye on Druids and making sure their role is stable. Not that long ago, all the Druid tanks were doomsaying and giving all the "itemization will fail", "I'll believe it when I see it" arguments--yet, here we are, with Druid tanks basically having to REMOVE +armor items in favor of more avoidance or HP, because it's almost ridiculously easy to hit the 75% armor cap in the buffed armor epics.
There is really no need for baseless claims about how Druids may someday be nerfed horribly due to itemization woes sometime in the future when there is absolutely zero evidence to support such a claim. It is almost totally unproductive and does people little good to "debate" non-issues.
your entire post completely assumes that bear form is the only form that even counts in raiding. this attitude is common, but I don't believe that the devs share it, because pre-ssc, pure dps feral gear DOES exist, and scales reasonably with rogues. it's only in ssc and beyond that this itemization begins to seriously drop off. I chalk it up to oversight.
The OP assumes that cat form is the only form that counts, as does Boevis. Infact I am assuming that BOTH forms count, and I feel that my original post makes this position very clear, so I can only assume you are trolling.
Feral druids are viable because they have both cat and bear form, where either on its own would struggle to justify a raid spot (well, perhaps not bear druid). Cat form is an added utility of bear tanks allowing them to DPS when they are not required to tank; and bear form is an added utility of cat form when the raid needs more tanks. They two are not seperable (IMO) and therefore any discussion relating catform dps to rogues is simply willful ignorance of the direction blizzard appear to have for feral druids at this time.
Further, and this keeps being repeated so again I can only assume some of the druids on here are either whining or trolling, noone has proved that the relative dps of druids is scaling worse than rogues or indeed any other class. Absolute dps MAY be scaling more slowly, but that is not the same thing at all.
The OP assumes that cat form is the only form that counts, as does Boevis.
It's not a stretch to focus on Cat Form when discussing DPS; it is the (feral) DPS form. Also I believe you were the one to talk about spending "an entire raid in Cat-Form" or druids being a "pure" dps class. Boevis and others have been talking about maintaining relative dps power, why you refute this I'm not sure.
Instead of yelling what hasn't been proved, go check out what has.
Instead of yelling what hasn't been proved, go check out what has.
Aye, but in return could you acknowledge the following:
If feral druids are only supposed to do 80-90% of a rogue's DPS, then their scaling should also be 80-90% of the rogue's scaling. That's how you keep a constant relative power gap.
Yes, you don't scale as well as rogues do. You're not supposed to. If your scaling were as good as a pure DPS class, then in *relative* terms you'd catch them up over time, which is surely not intended.
Secondarily to that, your scaling is less dependent on your weapon and more dependent on other stats from your armor. This is simply a flavour difference: you can argue till the cows come home (and they will) about how this affects matters. Is one big upgrade better than several small upgrades? Everyone will have their own answer.
Aye, but in return could you acknowledge the following:
To point 1: I agree, as was touched on in the excellent (Boevis) post #66 in this thread, which (unless misunderstood) concludes that the scaling is less than the 80-90% of a rogue which you proscribe.
2: By the same token, surely it is not intended to fall behind over time?
3: Perhaps this is a problem beyond the flavour difference, perhaps not. #66 suggests it might be but I haven't seen any comparisons of classes in full sets of gear so don't have a real opinion.
If a rogue gains 1000 DPS ever tier of gear, and druids gain 800, the ratio of effectiveness may stay the same, but eventually the druid will be so far behind as to be worthless in a DPS role.
3200:4000 is still the 8:10 ratio you talked about, but now the druid is a solid 600DPS behind a similarly geared rogue. The longer it continues, the worse the problem gets until cat druids will be doing far less DPS than other pure DPS classes and at that point we may as well throw on our healing gear again as that will be the most effective use of the raid slot.
However... From a DRUIDS point of view...
Bear form is the balancer. It is simply not feasible to look at one form, compare it to its "parent" class and then point out why it is, or will soon be not a feasible raid slot.
Pre-TBC 99% of the druids out there were one trick ponies. We healed! thats IT. Now we are the most effective offtanks as well as very respectable DPS. As well as being able to heal at a pinch (obviously talking ferals here).
Also, don't forget the above example is a MASSIVE oversimplification. I also do not expect the differences to be so drastic. In my DPS gear I kept up with my guilds rogues no problems (on bleeding mobs =). Often I even surpassed them. Now maybe my rogues were crap, but even so, that shows a druid does decent DPS. Now what else can a rogue do for the raid? well.. sweet FA.
People need to stop comparing individual forms because we are the one true hybrid class out there and as a feral you need to consider all the forms you bring to a raid in ANY argument.
Originally Posted by Songster
Secondarily to that, your scaling is less dependent on your weapon and more dependent on other stats from your armor. This is simply a flavour difference: you can argue till the cows come home (and they will) about how this affects matters. Is one big upgrade better than several small upgrades? Everyone will have their own answer.
Also a valid point. A lot of rerollers find this hard to swallow. I used to play a rogue, I enjoyed him for 2 years. Now I find that my weapon upgrades have nothing like the impact they used to on my rogue. It is definately harder to get used to gradual increases in DPs instead of jumps from weapons. Of course old habits die hard, so I am currently saving for the arena 2 maul =).
*editted due to comments below. Crack is bad kids! Stay off it!* Although maybe the people complaining so much about cat DPS believe the laws of math will be broken!
Last edited by Kink : 05/25/07 at 1:44 PM.
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
If a rogue gains 1000 DPS ever tier of gear, and druids gain 800, the ratio of effectiveness may stay the same, but eventually the druid will be so far behind as to be worthless in a DPS role.
3200:4000 is still the 8:10 ratio you talked about, but now the druid is a solid 600DPS behind a similarly geared rogue. The longer it contnues, the worse the problem gets until cat druids will be doing half a rogues damage and at that point we may as well throw on our healing gear again as that will be the most effective use of the raid slot.
At that scaling, the druid will never drop below 80% of an equally geared rogue's damage.
Did you mean, that at some point, the 20% DPS drop compared to a rogue makes it not worth using a druid in a DPS slot?
At that scaling, the druid will never drop below 80% of an equally geared rogue's damage.
Did you mean, that at some point, the 20% DPS drop compared to a rogue makes it not worth using a druid in a DPS slot?
Oops! lol indeed! May we never speak of this incident again!
Yes, basically I was just trying to point out that eventually the gap will be significant as that 20% difference will represent a larger and larger DPS gap. And that the difference of that 20% will be enough that there would be no point to use a druid as a purely DPS role. Which even now I think is a pretty poor idea, but hey...
Bascially.. don't complain about cat DPS unless you get stuck in cat form and are totally unable to ever use any other form!
Last edited by Kink : 05/25/07 at 1:57 PM.
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
The OP assumes that cat form is the only form that counts, as does Boevis.
At no point did I ever say this, nor will I ever say it. The lack of base paw DPS exists for bear as well, but no one cares if bear DPS is low as its primary intent is tanking.
At no point did I ever say this, nor will I ever say it. The lack of base paw DPS exists for bear as well, but no one cares if bear DPS is low as its primary intent is tanking.
Actually, from a PvP perspective I would say the 1h scaling of our 2h weapon is of major impact. When bursts of 6k damage from a single opponent are common, druids have trouble finding the middle ground where they can survive versus being able to do enough damage to be useful. I'm very close to following in Zyla's footsteps for this very reason, bearform doing too much damage my ass.
The reason I didn't present that argument is that it is uncertain whether or not the 800 (not 600 :P) dps would matter at that point as much as it does now. The problem of low dps is the average raid dps may fall below some threshold, but that threshold may be determined by a percentage of expected dps at that gear level. If druids stay at 80-90% of rogue dps, this should never be a factor.
There may be psychological factors of having one person assigned to doing dps having 800 less dps than and equally geared rogue, but we can't assume that will be the case, especially since current dps meters encourage percentage based comparisons.
The data indicates that we scale by a percentage of rogues right now, and it should be fine.
Does anyone know how many item points are lost for dps purposes from the added armor on the tier sets or gained from the lower stamina? Does it magically work out?
This is insane, feral is a tank/dps hybrid, of course nobody should ever consider taking a feral druid instead of a pure dps class.
at least with the data i have accumulated DPSing in heroics -> kara, feral druids are easily as viable in pure DPS roles as enh shaman, shadow priest, given equal gear, and easily outDPS non-PVE specced pure DPS classes - subtely rogue, frost mage, full demo lock.
As soon as my baby warrior hits 70, I'll be testing a 0/31/30 warrior spec for tanking/dps vs. my feral druid. I expect the warrior will be superior tanking, even with only 30 points in prot, and better dps, even with only 31 fury.
As soon as my baby warrior hits 70, I'll be testing a 0/31/30 warrior spec for tanking/dps vs. my feral druid. I expect the warrior will be superior tanking, even with only 30 points in prot, and better dps, even with only 31 fury.
Just as an aside: unless you have a shortage of full prot Warriors (e.g. less than 2-3 active) and intend to go 50+ prot, you are not more useful to a guild as a 0/31/30 Warrior than a Feral Druid. Period.
(Also, as a note, a Warrior without Shield Slam is generally useless for tanking in raids. And without Shield Slam, Imp. Defensive Stance, Vitality, or Shield Mastery, you certainly won't be rivaling any high-end tanking Druids for viability.)
at least with the data i have accumulated DPSing in heroics -> kara, feral druids are easily as viable in pure DPS roles as enh shaman, shadow priest, given equal gear, and easily outDPS non-PVE specced pure DPS classes - subtely rogue, frost mage, full demo lock.
to the quoted:
I agree with you. and I enjoyed thiat stage in my character's development quite a bit, but I am now facing the movement up from kara/gruul/mag to ssc and the eye, and seeing a desert as far as truly good gear for dps in cat form.
as to the above people who've said that I'm focusing completely on cat form here. I tank when it's needed in raids too, but that doesn't change the fact that when you know you'll be dps for an entire fight, you want to wear good cat dps gear, and it just doesn't exist in the ssc level and beyond, thus pidgeonholing the feral role into pretty much just tanking at those levels. basically I'm saying that the hybridness of feral druids (between tanking and dps) is leaning away from dps as new content is introduced. it would be one thing if I was saying there was a lack of itemization, what I'm saying here is that the devs seem to be forgetting about some aspects of feral druids as the introduce new content that they were taking account of before.
Take that Kara example, this is where druids were actually decent -
In Kara you could REALLY see where they wanted druids, as a decent MT if not a complete replacement for a Prot Warrior, and also a solid dps if not a complete replacement for a rogue.
At one point I was able perform at 95% to 100% of the rogues running kara, yes there were unfair advantages, Mark of the Champion to name one, but the point was we were right there with rogues in terms of dps.
Fast forward to Serpentshrine, quickly druids are outpaced in terms of dps gear, no real upgrades in terms of dps weapon and shoddy equipment meant that we dropped from this 90% range.
Again advance forward, take a look at Kael for example, in what world does a 318 top end dagger with loads of AP and crit rating, a 461 top end 1hand sword with loads of AP and crit rating, or a 744 top end 2hand axe with a metric fuckton of AP and Crit rating equal to a staff with 1125 FAP and no other Melee stats. This fight is the embodiment of all the bad itemization druids have had to endure in BC and prior. They get 2, 2 friggen legendary billion damage, incredible proc weapons and I get a modest 15 DPS increase at the cost of 35 agi in crit. Staff of Devastation could have twice that feral AP and rogues would still beat druids while having to kick fireballs.
Move ahead to Tier 6, druids struggle to cap 1000dps on most fights where we are able to dps, rogues are capping 1500 with ease on the same fights. Doesn't feel much like the 95% kara days does it. Most guilds capable will bring druids only for the "token tanking then scrubbing out 600dps" roles that having two prots is kinda a liability for. Any real raid group will just sub out the druid for anything with a dps check.
Starting to feel like shit only being able to pull 60% of a rogues damage, but hey, at least another expansion is probably 6 months or less away and we will be balanced again for 10 leveling levels.
05/24/07, 6:56 PM
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