Caligula

Sorry to post in this ancient thread but... you don't think this is broken in any way? Being able to outperform or "replace", as you put it, two other classes (those classes having to spec for a single role while you can spec for two), with a single spec?

Also you completely ignored the fact of the glancing blows/cleaves change which was really what brought rogues to where they should be in DPS.

If your client exists in a r2.0 vacuum your post would be relevant. There are way more factors to rogue DPS vs. druid DPS, especially over the time frame you have posed, than just weapon damage/AP.

Shit, you didn't even address the fact that you're still a 100% viable tank in the end game. Did this somehow slip your mind between Kara and BT as well?

 

◊ Vectivus

In case it hasn't been mentioned already (my eyes sort-of glazed over as I skimmed through too much Druidic nonsense :P), FAP was not part of the itemization budget on items pre-BC - in essence, it was a 'bonus' stat that only affected Feral Druids (and made up for the fact that the item's innate DPS didn't help them at all).

I do not know if this is still the case or not post-BC.

 

Drakhon

You're actually using weapons that are, essentially, a gimmick for a particular fight as an argument that Druid itemization and scaling are worse than other classes?

 

• sadris

In our guild, rogues deal 1900 dps and druids struggle to break 1100, it is just as I predicted

'[The main argument against gay-marriage] always revolves around ... "the gay agenda"... Apparently all these gays only want to get married so they can adopt children, turn the children gay (probably using their mystic gay voodoo, passed gayly down from one gay generation to the next), and perpetuate their gayness.'
-- rantingkitten

 

Boevis

I find it very hard to believe you can't break 1100 on "most fights" when your rogues are doing 1900. The other feral druid in my guild manages just under 1k while rogues are doing 1200.

 

Kazanir

Your rogues might be sucking though, the rogues in Juggernaut are well-known to be addicted to chain-pop haste drums and haste pots and generally be as badass as Jeremy Irons.

'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. I told you. This is bigger than a war. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.

You can come with me. I can protect you.

 

• sadris

It might be possible if Druids had access to T6 quality weapons, but we don't. There is a terrible staff from Hyjal with wasted points on base DPS, then additional wasted points on armor. Then there is the Merciless Gladiator's mace, with wasted points on base DPS, then on resilience. Also there is a lack of any druid bracers in the game, no T6 belt, etc etc; but this post is not about lack of Druid itemization, it is about wasted item points on base DPS

WWS
WWS

Lets assme I could get another 40dps from not having to go battle res/innervate someone, there is still a vast chasm of DPS between rogues/druids, and this wasn't the case 3 months ago. (Perhaps because we didn't have so much lost FAP due to base weapon DPS, just a theory...)

Druids could also do this, but they would lose a sizable portion of the potion (do you see what I did there?) due to the GCD after switching into a form.

'[The main argument against gay-marriage] always revolves around ... "the gay agenda"... Apparently all these gays only want to get married so they can adopt children, turn the children gay (probably using their mystic gay voodoo, passed gayly down from one gay generation to the next), and perpetuate their gayness.'
-- rantingkitten

 

tejing

dalamar, I couldn't have said it better. exactly what I'm talking about.

Tejing

 

Dalamar

Yes, it was a bonus stats for the Hammer of Beastial Fury and the Qiraji Warhammer and to a lesser extent the End of Dreams and Atiesh, but then they decided to seriously stuff us by retardedly throwing "Moonkin" onto Feral AP. Now there will NEVER be another real DPS weapon for Druids that is in contention with a warrior or rogue.

What I would give for proper scaling, DPS stats and being able to fucking CRAFT a tier 6 weapon that has also has GOOD STATS.



Yes.... , but the Sword is roughly equivalent to the Dagger, which both are pretty much the same increase as experienced by the Bow and Axe. Most other DPS classes will experience a rather significant DPS upgrade from this fight while still being required to pummel or kick on cooldown, Druids do not. It just seemed like another "you don't need to be good, you get a LOLAURA."

(I also know that Enh shaman get owned by the itemization of this fight and do not need a refresher in their poor state here)



This is mainly a discussion about tier 6 and such, and yes our dps will probably advance around 100 from the gear you wear right now to mid tier 6 equipment, while a rogue going from tier 5 to tier 6 gets at least twice that. Your rogues should be higher though.

It depends on group makeup and such, parsing numbers for ferals is REALLY hard though, because our dps is so low at this point it is not justifiable to put us in a rogue slot of a DPS group for fights like Anetheron or Teron Gorefiend where we can actually run DPS tests.



Rogues are getting multipliers upon multipliers when it comes to Haste, offhand attacks and Weapon topends when they pot or receive upgrades, we are not. Haste potions, much like everything else about Druid dps comes in at like 80% for us compared to a rogue, and we are burning white attacks(and energy cycles next patch) to use them.

 

Drakhon

My point was that those weapons are a mechanic of that specific fight, not a viable basis for itemization comparisons. It sucks that Feral Druids don't get a particularly good weapon, but saying that it is indicative of real gear is like saying that melee classes are bad because casters can outperform them on Tidewalker due to AE.

 

Dejablue

You can't look at weapon DPS for a Druid in a vacuum. When the developers began to use FAP they did not take away our modifiers from our armor. We didn't suddenly have similar DPS gain from armor stats alone versus a Rogue or Warrior or any other class. It remained the same.

The developers also have to balance things around the maximum possible. Maximum number of buffs, potions and other consumables, as well as maximum talent spec and raid organization such as placing feral Druids and rogues into the same group. No rogue has a perma 5% crit to all of their weapon attacks, and no Fury nor Arms nor Defense Warrior either.

I firmly believe the developers have a vision of where they want things to be and they work toward that vision. You have to look at the whole. You have to see the maximum and see that if 4 rogues and a Feral Druid are in the same group they will do more DPS then 5 rogues would. The Druid effectively gains the DPS of 4 warriors crits, 5% of the time. The same holds true for the other 2 trees, Moonkin and Tree of Life. Druids simply function differently. They thrive on a group mechanic, that is what the developers want.

The developers have to balance around all of this. Bears and Cats and Moonkin ALL have to utilize that FAP. We cant have bears with insane amounts of damage dealing capabilities. Mangle was nerfed, remember? Would you rather they nerfed our FAP weapons? I wouldn't. So they are balancing everything, talents skills and abilities along with 3 functions, while trying to maintain respectable Cat DPS and Moonkin usability all in the same weapon, across THREE weapon speeds and THREE sets of maximum utilization of talents, group placement and consumables.

This argument has come from Rogues from the other end. Complaints that they would love to have 700+ AP on their weapons or a 1.0 second attack speed. The same could be said for Druids needing only 415 Defense or equivalent with Resilience. Are you saying our itemization is under budget because we have much less defense on our items versus a Protection Warriors items? It is very similar argument tho only effecting one form at maximum.

In the end, for BC FAP weapons, no one wants to use them except Druids. You also can't bring up the past as examples and not concede that it has been a good solution thus far. All I am seeing from your OP is that Druids require less item budget to become similarly powerful. Good for us, we get a hell of a lot more from our other armor and stats. You know , like Druids running around at level 70 with MoT?

Looking into the future I do not see it as an issue. I feel it is the ONLY thing they can do to fill the gap without introducing Druid Class specific restricted items with insane amounts of Str and Agi in order to keep Rogues from scaling up even more, especially in the new BC world of scaled down 5 piece class sets. They can pretty arbitrarily fill in what AP they want us to have too meet that vision with the only constraints being balance among forms and equal utilization.

 

• sadris

Why would it be in their vision for Rogue DPS to increase by 63% going from Karazhan gear to T6, but Druids to only increase by 9%? Are we balanced at the Karazhan level? Does upgrading to T6 gear make us become "more balanced?" Let's face it, the majority of Druids don't have access to T6, so of course the developers would aim to tone Druid abilities to be of similar damage output at a lower level of content. You can't say that Druids are within the developers "plan of balance" if we are within 16% of a Rogue DPS in Karazhan ("balanced" at that point), but fall down to 60% of a Rogue's DPS in Hyjal (also "balanced" at this point???).

 

• Vykromond

The whole point, which was shown without contravention on the previous page of the thread, was that this does not hold for tier 6 content. It seems to me like you read the OP and ignored the rest of the thread, since everything else you said is just a rehash of already-discussed material as well.

 

Dejablue

There is a 12 DPS 35% increase from

Malorne Harness - Item Sets - World of Warcraft
To
Thunderheart Harness - Item Sets - World of Warcraft


STAVES

[Wildfury Greatstaff]
to
[Pillar of Ferocity]

is a 14.8 DPS increase in DPS. 35%

is an 11.7 DPS 20% upgrade from

[Terestian's Stranglestaff]

24 - 27 DPS increase, 35%, from bare stats alone, not including gems and non set items.


ROGUES

There is a 9.4 DPS 37% increase from

Netherblade - Item Sets - World of Warcraft
TO
Slayer's Armor - Item Sets - World of Warcraft

15.2 DPS 6.3% upgrade from

[Malchazeen]
TO
[Shard of Azzinoth]


13.7 DPS 6.7% upgrade from

[Emerald Ripper]
TO
[Messenger of Fate]

I think Rogues may wish to argue this in reverse.

We gain MORE DPS and MORE percentage in our weapon upgrades, sorry.

 

Mearis

Some classes are absurdly overpowered at lower levels of gear though. Shadowpriests with just crafted shit used to destroy every other DPS caster because of how good the tailoring gear is for us, and how small an upgrade it is to go from tailored gear to T6 gear.

Does this mean that Shadowpriests are underpowered at the T6 itemization level? No, just that they were obscenely overpowered beforehand when you could do mage like damage and restore insane amounts of mana.

Druids are exactly the same way, there is zero reason to take a rogue or a warrior over a feral druid until you have at the very least full tier4, because the damage differential in no way makes up for the utility and support you gain.

If anything you should advocate for a nerf to the base power of certain classes including shadowpriests at lower gear levels.

 

Dejablue

I think the "vision" from SSC on is to have a class that can provide a great offtank and then immediately provide great DPS by shifting in combat.

As far as the arbitrary 80% DPS cats are imagined as capable of. imagine a cat pulling 4 million damage out and rogues pulling 5 million in a group with 4 rogues and a feral cat. 1 million of that damage minimum is from LOTP crits where the Druid is actually providing more damage than the individual rogues, tho vicariously.

gah sorry keep editing out my annoying sig,headed to profile to change it now....

 

• sadris

www.juggernautguild.com/wws/

WWS to WWS says differently.

 

Dejablue

Hehe I was just getting ready to ask you for a WWS thanks man

 

• Vykromond

You picked a completely arbitrary number and then announced that it proves that Druids provide more damage? Seriously? That doesn't even rise to the level of 'napkin math.'

Here is a selection of, you know, real numbers. I used Teron, a nice melee-friendly fight, and took a report from the highest DPS guilds containing feral druids. I ignored one guild whose feral druid is an idiot and doesn't use Rip, which lowered his DPS by about 300.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
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Loading...
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

Doesn't look to me like cats are doing 80%, what does it look like to you?

 

Valerian

Uh where are you pulling these numbers from? All gear increases at roughly the same level item budget wise. However increasing from a 91 DPS dagger to a 106 dps dagger is MUCH more than a 15 dps increase for the rogue in question when you're talking about their total DPS which is what we are complaining is not scaling properly.

 

Dejablue

Appears to confirm it to me man.

Let me look some more.

 

Dejablue

everyone has been talking about weapons FAP scaling....... and it is clearly stated to NOT use talents or class specific abilities which I agree with you, YOU CAN'T. You have to look at everything.

I don't know the group makeup, you ahve to look at everything, my arbitrary number isn't saying druids don't DPS as much, it is saying, "you are using an arbitrary number and saying not to use special class abilities and only talk about weapon dps!!1!!!". I think it shows and has shown, you avhe to consider everything.

 

Valerian

From a quick estimation there, if you include the bonus from LoTP the druids are still only doing like 70% of the top rogue's DPS. There are other issues as well, such as either non-optimal gearing (not all the druids have 2set Malorne) non-optimal groups (not all the druids are getting the Enh Shammy) and other things such as non-optimal use of powershifting. That said, it still probably wouldnt make up the difference but there are a lot of factors that need to be looked at aside just the flat numbers.

 

Dejablue

Exactly.

Range and positioning and assisting can all be issues.

Yea if you look at the Juggernaut one it shows pretty well how a Druid DOES do less damage and less DPS, but as I was pointing out he is providing the rogues and or warriors with 5% crit, which cant be overlooked.

Weapon scaling, the OP, we scale with more DPS and percentage, we are a different class so we still dont compete on that level, we are an asset because we boost the rogues and can OT/Cat.

here is a good one:

WWS

if the Druid is in a group with 4 other melee doin 550000 and the Druids are pulling 350000 they are actually doing upwards of 460000 or 83% of teh rogues due to LOTP.I am saying that I think the devs realise this and it is by design to ahve the druids be a group reliant class in a singular, and/or hybrid role.

And nothing is perfect, even all of the rogues arent up there with the best rogues. I think the best they can do is say this is where we want druids to be so well slap on FAP to put them there. And you are right, looks good on papaer, doesnt pan out so well in practice.

 

Trazhenko

About these two:

In the first, Grimx has 47% glancing, in the second, 29%. This means the gruul kill was done before the glancing change, and before the consumable change and gear buffs (were those the same patch or different ones?).

The change to the glancing rate was more beneficial to rogues because of a naturally higher % white damage. The gear/consumable change was not a huge impact, but I believe my personal damage rose slightly when it happened, and druids definitely gained more from a full bar of elixirs than a rogue at the time due to 2AP/str and lower Agi:Crit ratio.

He was also spec'd daggers in the first one, but he's swords now (swords are simply better, especially with mangle available, maybe the drops just weren't there at the time, I know the drops aren't there for me ).

If the gruul kill happened today with the same gear levels, but a sword build and the current glancing rate, the gap would be larger at gruul, and the change would be less dramatic going to T6.

Would he still be outpacing you? Probably. Do I think it's a problem? Not really, but I'm a rogue too :P.

It's interesting to note that the top druid on both charts placed 6th, so in either situation, you can't really say they are all that terrible.

The magic damage on the recent WWS is absolutely atrocious, but this may be a function of the encounter (I've never been there). If it's not "caster unfriendly", maybe they have more reason to complain than druids.