Feral Attack Power: When good intentions go dumb. - Page 9

The Grog · 05/24/07, 6:26 AM

'Balanced in the future' rings the same kind of alarm bells for off-spec druids as 'awesome changes' do for warriors.

Specifically, it brings to mind images of poor scaling, neglected itemization, and total apathy from devs.

We have enough drags on our dps from split item budgets, lack of off-tier gear, and the inability to DW. I'm really not looking forward to another one, but as it stands I'm going to be using a Stranglestaff (if it ever goddamn drops) and a Wildfury (if IT ever drops, either) until the next expansion anyway.

Wraithlin · 05/24/07, 7:47 AM

Given that the feral tier sets are clearly designed for the role of offtanking and dpsing in the same gear when the tanking role becomes unnecessary in a given instance, why is the dps scaling of druids even being compared to "pure" dps classess? It would seem fairly clear to me that blizzard are not itemizing, or building the druid mechanics to optimize feral dps because they do not see the role of a feral druid as being a class that purely operates in cat form.

To put it another way.
The role blizzard seem to have defined for feral druids (note its feral not cat druids) is a one which.
1) Tanks almost as well as a warrior in the main tank role in a 25man raid, but not well enough that they would replace a full prot warrior as main tank for most bossess/guilds.
2) Is the best off tank in terms of TPS in a situation where you do not already have aggro.
3) Tanks better than a non-protection warrior, and deal more dps than a protection warrior so that the role or tank/dps hybrid cannot be filled as effectively if the druid is replace by a warrior.

So with that in mind, why is the dps scaling of cat druids being talked about in-vacuo, blizzard do not appear as if they are trying to balance feral druids, or their scaling, about how much dps they can do in cat form? They simply want to keep within the 3 boundaries laid out above and if they manage that they will most likely consider it a sucess.

Even if a druid in T99 is doing only 70% of a rogues dps, compared to the 85% he was doing in T4, he will still not be replaced by the rogue in that position of tank/dps hybrid. Feral druids are not, in my opinion, competing with rogues for raid viability, they are squarely competing agasint the vanilla fury warrior who could put out awesome dps, then throw on his T4 for patchwerk. In that sense feral druids are only in dainger (from a purely pve point of view), if either:
1) Content requires a fixed number of tanks for every single encounter, including trash, in a given instance.
2) Druids become so poor at tanking/ prot warriors become so good at dpsing/dps warriors become so good at tanking, that you are better off replacing the feral druid with a warrior.

The OP is interesting, but ultimately, in my opinion, meaningless in PvE, it is akin to a protection warrior complaining his dps isnt scaling as fast as rogues if he puts his dps gear on. None of the above touches upon PvP, but that is too complicated for me to comment upon so I will keep my comments to PvE content (and there more focused on 10/25 man content).

• Maestroquark · 05/24/07, 8:37 AM

Not one person has still shown true evidence of Druids not scaling well.

Anyway, as we know ...

Feral staves: 0.4631988
Daggers: 0.460963384

... doesn't tell the whole picture because some classes dual wield. But don't just say "you dual wield!" We dual wield, lose 25%-50% of the OH's damage (depending on spec), and lose 19% hit for dual wielding.

Once again, the whole picture is being ignored to try to prove some point.

Beregon · 05/24/07, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Rogues weapons scale as 1Hers. Druid weapons scale as 1Hers. Via class abilities, rogues convert this to some amount of dps. ...

Until level 60, Druid weapons scale as 2-H. Post 60 Druid scaling drops to 1-H. It's that change in scaling that means druids are now on a slower slope than their current relative position would indicate.

Maratai · 05/24/07, 11:47 AM

IMO, without any new data, this conversation is dead. Druids can identify that their weapons, and perhaps armor as well, are inefficiently itemized and under Ilevel budget. Others can point out thats just 1 data point, and doesn't mean anything in comparison with other classes and the overall scaling/dps out. One is left to wonder though if this was "warriors" proving that their "2H" weapons weren't scaling if there wouldn't be a massive outcry. Then again, maybe the same folks would point out their other abilities that compensate. Enough said. End result: 1 class spec, historically neglected, fears they will become irrelevant again. Only time will tell.

Jayde · 05/24/07, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by Beregon

Until level 60, Druid weapons scale as 2-H. Post 60 Druid scaling drops to 1-H. It's that change in scaling that means druids are now on a slower slope than their current relative position would indicate.

It could also very well mean that pre-TBC when they were experimenting with the whole Feral Attack Power idea, they found out that the 2h itemization theory was over the top and decided to move to a 1h scaling system instead. It looks to me to be a clearly intentional decision and anything but some random fluke.

Boevis · 05/25/07, 12:47 AM

It amuses me to see the same people trolling this thread that I've seen trolling many other balance oriented threads.

Catform-only itemization doesn't exist
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with raw AP
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with FAP vsWeapon DPS
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with Str vs AP
Would you like me to prove that druids don't scale as well with Agi vs Agi? (Both classes get the same AP, which druids scale worse with, druids get slightly more crit so it's probably even)
Rogues scale better with hit rating because of DW
Rogues scale better with crit rating because of DW
I can prove those last two as well if you'd like

Between non existant itemization (just how many trinkets need ap/crit with a use:+ap anyway? where's the +35 agi with use: +135 str trinket?) and a weapon that doesn't scale based on the slot it uses, Druids will eventually not be taken for a DPS role. This gives druids an eventual 0 specs desired for DPS in raiding (lets face it, moonkin is crap still) placing us on par with Paladins who are favored for healing primary and OT secondary compared to druids as OT primary and healing secondary. As much as I hate paladins, being a "Loldps" class is the last thing I want for anyone

Wraithlin · 05/25/07, 3:18 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

It amuses me to see the same people trolling this thread that I've seen trolling many other balance oriented threads.

Catform-only itemization doesn't exist
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with raw AP
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with FAP vsWeapon DPS
I've proven druids don't scale as well as rogues with Str vs AP
Would you like me to prove that druids don't scale as well with Agi vs Agi? (Both classes get the same AP, which druids scale worse with, druids get slightly more crit so it's probably even)
Rogues scale better with hit rating because of DW
Rogues scale better with crit rating because of DW
I can prove those last two as well if you'd like

You have proved nothing, if druids and rogues scaled at the same rate than in the far limit their DPS would converge, because the base dps difference would become small relative to the overall dps from that individual. The fact that Druids scale more slowly than rogues does not prove that their relative dps is scaling more slowly, infact in the extreme limit their relative dps will tend towards the ratio at which both classess scale (not that we should reasonably expect to see that limit).

Silly example

T4 Rogue DPS = 1000
T4 Cat DPS   = 800

Ratio = 8:10

If both classess scale at the same rate (i.e. they get the same dps benefits from itemization, and lets pretend they can both wear the same gear to avoid arguments over poor itemization):

TX Rogue DPS  = 1000 + 1000 = 2000
TX Cat DPS    = 800 + 1000  = 1800

Ratio = 18:20 = 9:10

So if both classess scale at the same rate, then RELATIVE dps scales faster for the druid. Now lets make the druid scale at a slower rate than rogues

TX Rogue DPS  = 1000 + 1000 = 2000
TX Cat DPS    = 800 + 800   = 1600

Ratio = 16:20 = 8:10

So, a more slowly scaling druid, keeps his dps scaling at the same relative rate as the rogue, his dps relative to the roge has neither gone up nor down, though in absolute terms he scaled more slowly. I will state it again, you have proved nothing about the relative scaling of druid and rogue dps.

Originally Posted by Boevis

Druids will eventually not be taken for a DPS role.

And I will ask you the same questions I asked with my first post in this thread:
What makes you think, given the clear tanking bias of the tiered feral sets, that blizzard want feral druids to be taken in a pure dps role ?

There is absolutely no indication that blizzard intend for you to spend an entire raid in Cat-Form, and as such no reason to believe Blizzard want you to scale as well as or better than rogues. There appear to me to be clear signs blizzard wants feral druids to fill the old fury-warrior role of tank/dps hybrid and as such your dps scaling is only one factor in future desireability and perhaps less important than the scaling of feral druids in their tanking roles.

Mearis · 05/25/07, 4:17 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

This gives druids an eventual 0 specs desired for DPS in raiding (lets face it, moonkin is crap still) placing us on par with Paladins who are favored for healing primary and OT secondary compared to druids as OT primary and healing secondary. As much as I hate paladins, being a "Loldps" class is the last thing I want for anyone

This is insane, feral is a tank/dps hybrid, of course nobody should ever consider taking a feral druid instead of a pure dps class.

Feral druids should be taken when you require a main tank for a hard-hitting physical dps dealing mob, when threat generation under low rage conditions is needed, and when you require the added flexibility. Feral druids also provide absolutely stellar ancilliary benefits like LotP, battlerez, innervates.

If they were balanced around just their DPS role, the added flexibility they bring to the role would make them the most overpowered class in game. For the record, the past ~3 days we have raided with at least 5 or 6 druids in the raid, 4 feral, one moonkin (who healed) and one restoration.

tejing · 05/25/07, 5:01 AM

I also have scaling worries about cat dps, as it is my characters main focus. I had not thought of the point you brought up, but I agree. There is definitely a scaling problem there. My only guess is that Blizzard is leaving the path open to allow weapon dps to affect feral weapon dps sometime in the future. Still, I would rather they fixed feral AP weapons.

My other scaling concern is simply itemization. a quick overview of wowhead shows that in each new tier of raid progression, there is less and less dps-oriented feral gear. the Malorne set with the right other pieces makes an extremely powerful set of equipment (forget the gloves of course), but nordrassil is almost no better, and thunderheart is actually worse than nordrassil I believe. The item designers started out making combo cat/bear gear, and are leaning more and more toward bear as time goes on. The last truely dps-oriented feral weapon is sill the squidstaff. though the pillar of ferocity may be better, the item budget points could be spent MUCH better for dps. it's clearly intended to be a tanking weapon.

tejing · 05/25/07, 5:02 AM

Bah, double post... don't seem to be able to delete on these forums

tejing · 05/25/07, 5:19 AM

Originally Posted by Wraithlin

Given that the feral tier sets are clearly designed for the role of offtanking and dpsing in the same gear when the tanking role becomes unnecessary in a given instance, why is the dps scaling of druids even being compared to "pure" dps classess? It would seem fairly clear to me that blizzard are not itemizing, or building the druid mechanics to optimize feral dps because they do not see the role of a feral druid as being a class that purely operates in cat form.

To put it another way.
The role blizzard seem to have defined for feral druids (note its feral not cat druids) is a one which.
1) Tanks almost as well as a warrior in the main tank role in a 25man raid, but not well enough that they would replace a full prot warrior as main tank for most bossess/guilds.
2) Is the best off tank in terms of TPS in a situation where you do not already have aggro.
3) Tanks better than a non-protection warrior, and deal more dps than a protection warrior so that the role or tank/dps hybrid cannot be filled as effectively if the druid is replace by a warrior.

So with that in mind, why is the dps scaling of cat druids being talked about in-vacuo, blizzard do not appear as if they are trying to balance feral druids, or their scaling, about how much dps they can do in cat form? They simply want to keep within the 3 boundaries laid out above and if they manage that they will most likely consider it a sucess.

Even if a druid in T99 is doing only 70% of a rogues dps, compared to the 85% he was doing in T4, he will still not be replaced by the rogue in that position of tank/dps hybrid. Feral druids are not, in my opinion, competing with rogues for raid viability, they are squarely competing agasint the vanilla fury warrior who could put out awesome dps, then throw on his T4 for patchwerk. In that sense feral druids are only in dainger (from a purely pve point of view), if either:
1) Content requires a fixed number of tanks for every single encounter, including trash, in a given instance.
2) Druids become so poor at tanking/ prot warriors become so good at dpsing/dps warriors become so good at tanking, that you are better off replacing the feral druid with a warrior.

The OP is interesting, but ultimately, in my opinion, meaningless in PvE, it is akin to a protection warrior complaining his dps isnt scaling as fast as rogues if he puts his dps gear on. None of the above touches upon PvP, but that is too complicated for me to comment upon so I will keep my comments to PvE content (and there more focused on 10/25 man content).

your entire post completely assumes that bear form is the only form that even counts in raiding. this attitude is common, but I don't believe that the devs share it, because pre-ssc, pure dps feral gear DOES exist, and scales reasonably with rogues. it's only in ssc and beyond that this itemization begins to seriously drop off. I chalk it up to oversight.

Jayde · 05/25/07, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by tejing

your entire post completely assumes that bear form is the only form that even counts in raiding. this attitude is common, but I don't believe that the devs share it, because pre-ssc, pure dps feral gear DOES exist, and scales reasonably with rogues. it's only in ssc and beyond that this itemization begins to seriously drop off. I chalk it up to oversight.

Actually, I believe that (and other) posts are saying quite specifically: the Feral tree is balanced for having two roles in a raid in the same spec/tree, Tanking and DPS. Feral Druids are an off-tank/off-DPS spec. Honestly--and I'm sorry if this sound hasrh--if you can't accept that, you aren't paying attention.

Just the other day, our Druid class leader was giddy in remarking to me after our post-patch Magtheridon raid about how he managed so-and-so large amount of AP/crit in DPS/gladiator gear while also having 18k HP in Bearform and being uncrittable for tanking the first Summoner. He ended up 5th or 6th on damage meters DPSing after tanking. I've seen him as high as 4th on Gruul, and I've seen him win damage while full-time DPSing in certain fights in 5 and 10-man group content.

Feral Druids are more or less REQUIRED in raids right now, due to the pathetic stacking of Protection spec Warriors and the mix of fights that need many tanks but also high DPS. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Druids will not stay viable over the long haul.

Honestly, the Druid community has been doomsaying for the last 6 months about the viability of Druids over the long-haul, yet every new patch solidifies the role of Feral Druids in both group and raid content. My first character was a Druid, and I can fully understand the trauma of being the lowest DPS class in the game for a very long time...however, that time is not now.

It's quite obvious that the devs are keeping an eye on Druids and making sure their role is stable. Not that long ago, all the Druid tanks were doomsaying and giving all the "itemization will fail", "I'll believe it when I see it" arguments--yet, here we are, with Druid tanks basically having to REMOVE +armor items in favor of more avoidance or HP, because it's almost ridiculously easy to hit the 75% armor cap in the buffed armor epics.

There is really no need for baseless claims about how Druids may someday be nerfed horribly due to itemization woes sometime in the future when there is absolutely zero evidence to support such a claim. It is almost totally unproductive and does people little good to "debate" non-issues.

Wraithlin · 05/25/07, 6:15 AM

Originally Posted by tejing

your entire post completely assumes that bear form is the only form that even counts in raiding. this attitude is common, but I don't believe that the devs share it, because pre-ssc, pure dps feral gear DOES exist, and scales reasonably with rogues. it's only in ssc and beyond that this itemization begins to seriously drop off. I chalk it up to oversight.

The OP assumes that cat form is the only form that counts, as does Boevis. Infact I am assuming that BOTH forms count, and I feel that my original post makes this position very clear, so I can only assume you are trolling.

Feral druids are viable because they have both cat and bear form, where either on its own would struggle to justify a raid spot (well, perhaps not bear druid). Cat form is an added utility of bear tanks allowing them to DPS when they are not required to tank; and bear form is an added utility of cat form when the raid needs more tanks. They two are not seperable (IMO) and therefore any discussion relating catform dps to rogues is simply willful ignorance of the direction blizzard appear to have for feral druids at this time.

Further, and this keeps being repeated so again I can only assume some of the druids on here are either whining or trolling, noone has proved that the relative dps of druids is scaling worse than rogues or indeed any other class. Absolute dps MAY be scaling more slowly, but that is not the same thing at all.

suicuique · 05/25/07, 7:08 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Rogues scale better with crit rating because of DW
I can prove those last two as well if you'd like

This I'd like to see (perhaps in another thread?).
Because I cannot imagine in what way DW favours crit scaling over 1h/2h.