Should your Resto Shaman be giving your 4 Melee DPS'ers Str of Earth? Or your 3 mages Wrath of Air? Is it worth throwing a Rogue in with the Mana users, so that your Hunter can give the other 4 members TSA?
I am in the process of generating a Group Composition Evaluater/Calculator. A Spreadsheet that will evaluate the DPS bonus to the Raid based upon how you manage your groups. For now, DPS will be the focus, with no regard to STA or healing bonuses. Once that is complete, I will try to add in the value of Healing/Armor bonuses into the equation.
I know a lot of this is subjective, based on spec, etc, etc. But this will be a starting point, until someone with more capability and Coding experience can take the project to the next level.
For anyone willing to help:
What I need from the experts in the community:
The DPS increase for the following classes, based on the appropriate buffs:
Warriors (PVE Fury Spec):
Battle Shout
Grace of Air
Windfury
Strength of Earth
Leader of the Pack
Trueshot Aura
Rogue (PVE Spec):
Battle Shout
Grace of Air
Windfury
Strength of Earth
Leader of the Pack
Trueshot Aura
Hunter (PVE Spec):
Grace of Air
Leader of the Pack
Trueshot Aura
Druid (Feral):
Battle Shout
Grace of Air
Windfury
Strength of Earth
Leader of the Pack
Trueshot Aura
Mage (PVE Spec):
Wrath of Air Totem
Warlock (PVE Spec):
Wrath of Air Totem
Shadow Priest:
Wrath of Air Totem
***Notable Exceptions***
I am only including 1 spec per class for now. Shamans are Resto, druids are Feral, warriors are Fury. Next version will include Spec specifics.
This is a crude first draft, once this is complete I will incorporate Raid Wide Buffs (BoM, Gift, Misery, etc). And hopefully we will be able to put a DPS # on the value of Mana. Until then, due to my limited experience, and to avoid being overwhelmed, I have tried to keep the list simple.
Our alliance guild has a few shamans to it now in the raiding scene and we've always (jokingly) argued which is better. I'd like to see how this goes, but I figure it will probably be about equal in the end.
I know these spreadsheets exist for each of these buffs. But being no expert on every class, I am looking for experienced players from each class to add their knowledge.
I'm sure you can give a reasonable expectation of what gear+spec a hunter would wear. I have place holder values for each class already, but I am hoping for more refined information from the specialists in each class. I'm just not sure how much 305 AP adds to a rogue in terms of overall DPS, because I am (A) not sure about his ideal spec, and (B) not sure what reasonable values are for each stat.
Don't forget things like.. all mana-users benefit from a shadow priest. Moonkin crit thing (the caster version of LotP), etc. Also, that Unleashed Fury thing from Enhancement shamans benefits all Attack Power types.. rogues, warriors, etc. Not sure if thats for RAP too.
As for rogues, a *rough* guide is ~300 AP = 10% dmg increase. Or at least thats what spreadsheets tell me, as a dagger rogue with 1500 ap unbuffed, ~290 hit and ~25.5% crit. Raid buffed I'm generally around ~2k+ AP, 28-33% crit (depends if I get a feral druid).
Rogue (PVE Spec):
Battle Shout: ~100 dps
Grace of Air: ~50 dps
Windfury: ~125-150 dps, depending on spec
Strength of Earth: ~30 dps
Leader of the Pack: ~50 dps
Trueshot Aura: ~40 dps
Unleashed Rage: ~75 dps
Numbers extracted from the rogue gear spreadsheet. Note that the WF number may be a bit off, since the model of WF in that sheet is oversimplified at the moment. But that's still probably a reasonable ballpark figure.
For my gear (crafted epics, early Kara) and MM spec I'd see about the following DPS output, pre-mitigation:
Just normal raid buffs - 1435, with pet buffed too
Leader of the Pack - 1520 (+85)
Grace of Air - 1500 (+65)
Trueshot Aura turned off - 1390 (TSA would be +45)
Battle Shout (pet only) - 1465 (+30)
Those factored in Blessing of Might, Blessing of Kings, Mark of the Wild, and Arcane Brilliance on both Hunter and Pet. Grilled Mudfish and Elixir of Major Agility on Hunter.
Of course that is doing 100% DPS without any movement, etc. These are also using 2.1 mechanics and gear.
problem is that most of the buffs are scaling with your equip so basically you ould have to enter stats for all your participants. Another thing are the different specs like dagger & sword rogues which have a vast difference in gameplay and really benefit from different stuff. And DPS varies (mainly for melee) from encounter to encounter.
I think you cant handle it with flat stat gain comparision since in the end you would have to compare the scaling of different classes for certain stats with each other.
Conclusion : you would code yourself to death (especially for rogues i think)
Better Idea : Give the possibility to enter DPS for all DDs and make it possible to select a rough overview of the specc (fury/ms, frost/fire, dagger/sword) and then add a certain increase for every buff.
Anyway i dont really see the sense of it because there arent really so many hard decision to make.
Shamy > Feral Drood > Hunter in most case for group buffs … warrior should be in anyway so wheres the big problem …
Better Idea : Give the possibility to enter DPS for all damage dealers and make it possible to select a rough overview of the specc (fury/ms, frost/fire, dagger/sword) and then add a certain increase for every buff.
This is likely the most manageable way to do such a calculation. Otherwise, the various scaling + various specs means that there are many variables to take into account.
This would still be tough even if you make such assumptions, and even if you do such work, would it all that valuable?
I agree that this is a complex exercise, and it will never reach the sophistication of the "Rogue DPS Spreadsheet". But I think people might be very surprised to see some results. Consider the following 10 man:
This is likely the most manageable way to do such a calculation. Otherwise, the various scaling + various specs means that there are many variables to take into account.
This would still be tough even if you make such assumptions, and even if you do such work, would it all that valuable?
This is what I am looking on doing.
Warrior:
If ( Druid=TRUE), then + 40dps
if ( Warrior=TRUE), then +70 dps
etc,
etc
The thing you don't seem to be taking into account is that some buffs scale other buffs. You can't just take a rogue and say that Windfury grants +X DPS, because it actually grants +Y DPS when that rogue also has battle shout, lotp, might, etc.
This is also a problem due to gear. Again, Grace of Air granting me 3% crit might increase my DPS by A with no other buffs, but someone with better weapons or more AP from gear might get +B DPS.
I do see what you're trying to do however. The only thing I could think to do is to assume baseline talent specs for each class and then try to get a simple model of their base DPS given important info (hit/crit/AP and optimal cycles) then try to model buff scaling in a very complex fashion.
At this point don't most people know who to stick where? Aside from a few questions like 'WF or GoA in a group with two ferals, two rogues, and a DPS warrior' and 'TSA hunter with melee groups or with a shadow priest', I think everyone understands not to do silly things like stick a shaman dropping Wrath of Air in with four ret paladins.
The thing you don't seem to be taking into account is that some buffs scale other buffs. You can't just take a rogue and say that Windfury grants +X DPS, because it actually grants +Y DPS when that rogue also has battle shout, lotp, might, etc.
This is also a problem due to gear. Again, Grace of Air granting me 3% crit might increase my DPS by A with no other buffs, but someone with better weapons or more AP from gear might get +B DPS.
I do see what you're trying to do however. The only thing I could think to do is to assume baseline talent specs for each class and then try to get a simple model of their base DPS given important info (hit/crit/AP and optimal cycles) then try to model buff scaling in a very complex fashion.
At this point don't most people know who to stick where? Aside from a few questions like 'WF or GoA in a group with two ferals, two rogues, and a DPS warrior' and 'TSA hunter with melee groups or with a shadow priest', I think everyone understands not to do silly things like stick a shaman dropping Wrath of Air in with four ret paladins.
Thing is, these effects are fairly minor, and in terms of ballpark figures this approach will work fine. Yes, if you have Battle Shout on, WF might add 130 dps instead of 120, but you don't need to encapsulate that subtlety in; knowing that it's "about" 125 dps is plenty to make a rough cut of group composition. Yeah, the results won't be accurate at the level of 5 dps differences, but really? That's not a realistic goal anyway. If it can resolve broad differences in quality, that's plenty - and for that, you don't need to worry about buff interactions on that level.
Druids doesnt gain anything from Windfury unless they're powershifting, right?
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
05/22/07, 4:25 PM
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