Just wanted to comment on the "warriors can get 100%+ avoidance"-lists, I have seen referenced lately.

1) Obtaining all of these items is quite a specialised task. And certainly takes times ... so don't assume you run of the mill warrior will meet these requirements.

2) Getting there you would in fact sacrifice your HP and/or AC stats. With the best gear available the sacrifice might be not that grave, but it is significant.

3) and most importantly: gearing this way you WILL get into serious threat problems as a warrior.

I cannot stress the last point enough. Forget about using heroic strikes, because you will not have enough rage for that. You'd just get rage from autoattacking (abysmal low) from blocked hits, from non avoidable AE and magical damage. I'm not sure you'd even have enough rage to upkeep the basic SS/revenge/sunder/SB/devastate rotation.

It breaks my heart to admit this fact, as I was always advocated a balanced gearing for avoindace stats too (and not just using SoE in every gem slot), but it's the reality that gearing for too much avoidance will break your threat as a warrior.
I still do pickup good avoidance gear and use ist, but even at my levels I start to fell the rage starvation of avoidance streaks. IIS ("Idling In Shattrah") unbuffed I run at 47%+ combined dodge+parry rate and 529 def (see my armory profile for details http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...as&n=Suicuique)

These "100% avoidance+block" lists seem very academic to me. Though I have to admit that if you shuffle around avoidance stats like dodge+parry and mitigation (and still crushing blows avoiding) stats like block% you *could* eventually manage crush immunity and avoiding rage starvation. I just don' know. Only time will tell. But certainly not such lists.

with fort/mark/bp/commanding/devotion, as a kara geared warrior i have 18.9k buffed hp and 17600 ac, I don't think this is anywhere near exceptional, 14k ac numbers are definately 2.0 numbers, not 2.1

Going crush immune (102.4%) seems interesting, and really doesn't seem to end up with much stam/ac loss if you add up that spreadsheet. As said above tho, what would rage generation be like... in my non-avoidance gear I already find myself needing to go to a shield block value set to tank heroics or I don't have the rage to get anything to hit me.

I love druid tanks, I think they are the bees knees, threat that scales with gear is huge to me.

What I worry about alot more as a tank is spike damage, "what can this particular boss do to gibb me before healers can react" and I keep thinking that warriors can deal with these situations better (maybe incorrectly). All three of the first 25-man bosses have these traits (and thats all my limited experience can draw from).

Just Nitpicking... But you are wrong

You forgot Paladin's Defensive Stance-lite. We get a 6% reduction with Imp RF. IT works exactly like Def Stance, but its 6% instead of 10%.

Paladin:
((mob raw damage *.94) * (1- armor % reduced) ) - shield block value = damage per hit.

6% reduction for physical.
10% reduction for magical.

A setup like this would certainly be weak against some boss abilities (high magical damage etc.), but I don't think threat generation would be as gimped as you say.
You will still generate a decent amount of rage from blocked hits. More importantly, you don't have to spend 10 rage every 5 seconds on Shield Block anymore. That is quite a big deal.

Overall, I would expect the threat generation to go down, but not by much.

The list isn't meant to be set in stone. it's just academic like you said, until somebody can achieve a setup that theorteically yields crush immunity and can test it out in game. I just kept thinking to myself; with all the sta influx with 2.1, is it really that necessary to stack sta/ac IF you can guarantee no crushings. You'd clearly want to make sure that in such a crush immune setup, you have enough hitpoints for worse-case scenario of any encounter (parry flurry+magical ability, all yielding the max end of their damage ranges, etc). Secondly, you'd need to test it out and see how well in-game it works for rage generation.

There are options available to help alleviate any rage generation problems.
-You could use the crappy level 68 blue shield (Shield of the Wayward Defender) to take more damage via less ac, yielding more rage.
-I defaulted the red gem sockets to 8dodge; you could use 8parry rating instead (aswell as thich dawnstones over enduring talasites, etc....the effect is minimal, but the sockets could lead to a -3% dodge rate, and +2.5% parry rate)
-There are new epic gems available also

I have about 85% avoidance+block (48% avoid, 37% block, profile), which is about 82.5% versus a level 73 boss mob. While Dabiri's Enigma is active, that pushes me to about 98% avoidance+block, so every non-blocked, non-avoided hit should be a crushing. I've never seen a normal hit recently while Dabiri's is active (while it's active, I don't even hit shield block anymore, I just goto town on the boss).

As the orginal spreadsheet isn't being updated, I went ahead and created my own spreadsheet, available at: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...po5mAjUfoUBFLw

Note: An armor value of ".3" means that you are taking .3 of the raw damage, or 30%. Your character screen would display "70% reduced damage". Just easier to calculate this way, I guess I could let people put in actual armor values (ie, 15,000) in a future version, if people find this useful. Defensive stance is therefore a ".9" mod, etc. Avoidance also works this way, so 30% dodge would be .7...I just happened to use .5 for avoidance, so it works no matter what

One thing that's clear is that shield block makes warriors better against mobs with weaker attacks. Bosses who dual wield or otherwise hit weakly. Whereas druids higher % reduction makes them better for 25 man raid bosses who hit hard, and hit physically. Also, note that there is almost no difference in terms of overall damage taken from aoe effects, that warriors only have an edge on direct magical damage. If the spell can also be reflected, this is a significant edge.

Is there any way I can make it savable/edittable to others without letting them change the orginal copy? Ie, play with and safe your own copy, don't corrupt mine? If not, I may find some document hosting site and put up an excel version, but for now, there's the sheet.

And thanks for the information on paladin's -6% damage modifier. I was considering adding paladins to the spreadsheet but even though I had a level 60 prot paladin, I leveled him to 70 as holy, and I just don't know all the small effects like that one, so I left them out for now. Adding a line for paladins with .94 defensive modifier would be very simple, but accounting for things like ardent defender don't really translate neatly onto a spreadsheet.

I'd also appreciate if paladins/warriors can post their stats, as well as a description of what kind of gear they used for those pics. Ie, we're farming kara and I got the t4 shoulders from gruul's lair, or something.

We're Farming Kara, downed Gruul 2 times now. I still don't have T4 Shoulders or pants. I still miss Wrynn's legs and Either Gruul's or Nightbane's shield, and Attumen's bracer.

Armor: 17k
Defense: 495
Dodge: 21.01%
Parry: 15.8%
Block: 20.44%
Block value: 385 (Post Shield Spec, IE: the amount i block for.)
HP: 16.8k (Raid buffed, Food, Imp, Commanding Shout, No flask)

I expect my HP to jump about 1k and my Block Value to 475 and dodge by 1-2% once i get T4 shoulder, Wrynn's, Attumen's bracers and Gruul's shield.

I'm your average Tankadin that tanks somewhat actively (about 70% of the time spent in raids.)

Some consideration:

1) AD 30% DR under 35% HP. (Starts at around 5.8k hp for me)
1a) Not sure if the 30% reduction is applied at Raw damage or post Armor reduction.

2) Imp Holy shield: +35% Block Chance, 8 charges per 10sec. With 8 per 10 sec, factoring dodge / parry / miss, pretty much every hits are blocked hits, and blocked for 385 right now in my gear. (could loose 2% dodge to push it very close to 575 with autoblocker, T4 shoulder and a new shield.)

3) Imp RF: 6% RAW Damage Reduction.

4) I'm using Moroe's Pocket Watch and Dawnstone Crab atm as "Oh shit" buttons. I don't really know how valid is that but it's worked so far.

Wouldn't it be the same in either case, seeing that both (AR and AD) are factored in multiplicatively.

I guess that it can't be (Armor's% + 30%) reduction. Assuming that, it wouldn't matter as long as it's being processed before Block Value.

Block value is processed last in line.

Seeing how it is on the topic, anyone have the numbers of armor reduction versus a 73, as versus level 70 is rather moot as nothing that requires minmaxing tanks will be a 70 mob.

As such what is a warrior with 20k armor(armor potted) mitigating versus a bear with 34k against 73s?

What I would give for a Armor to Mitigation generator with a scaling button for the different levels.

We found out a while ago in some other tanking thread (hell if I remember which one) that wiki was wrong, not by much, but still ...

DR = Armor/(Armor+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59))+400)

Which of those numbers do you put your level in and which do you put the mob level in? Is that for level 60 or 70?

These two formulas are equivalent.

Further nitpicking, it should be
((mob raw damage *.94) * (1- armor % reduced) ) - shield block value*1.3 = damage per hit.
(since paladins have talent "shield specialization" increasing block value by 30%)

We kinda were assuming that the BV there is the actual amount you block for. Because Shield Block value*1.3 still isn't accurate and doesn't take into account your strenght.