Not another Ignites are rolling thread!, but I do not understand what is going on with ignites now! Hopefully somebody can clarify.
This is a quick test on Dr. Boom with only spamming Fireball. No scorch debuff up, or cast. 7 Crits in a row:
04:13'04.484 Cryic's Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 3103 Fire damage
04:13'06.781 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 621 Fire damage '''' * * 3103 x .2 = 620.5
04:13'07.765 Cryic's Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 2922 Fire damage
04:13'09.843 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 894 Fire damage ''''' * * 2922*.2 = 584 + 620.5 = 1,204 (wtf)
04:13'11.375 Cryic's Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 3120 Fire damage
04:13'13.578 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 1071 Fire damage ''''' * * 624 + 584 = 1208
04:13'14.656 Cryic's Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 2985 Fire damage
04:13'16.968 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 1133 Fire damage ''''' * * 597 + 624 = 1221
04:13'17.828 Cryic's Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 2913 Fire damage
04:13'19.984 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 1149 Fire damage ''''' * * 582 + 597 = 1179
04:13'21.125 Cryic's Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 2918 Fire damage
04:13'23.515 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 1158 Fire damage ''''' * * 583 + 582 = 1165
04:13'24.609 Cryic's Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 3104 Fire damage
04:13'26.687 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 1200 Fire damage ''''' * * 620 + 583 = 1203
04:13'28.000 Cryic's Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 2122 Fire damage
04:13'28.703 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 1200 Fire damage '''''' * * 620 + 583 = 1203
04:13'31.281 Cryic's Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 2087 Fire damage
04:13'34.453 Cryic's Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 2075 Fire damage
Before the above segment, normaly fireballs with no crits. I really do not understand the second ignite tick, where did 894 come from??
One slightly wonky thing about the above, the ignites grew slightly bigger or stayed the same, they never lowered during the ignite string. I assume this has something to do with the unexpected numbers, but it still does not explain the second ignite tick.
04:13'04.484 Cryic's Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 3103 Fire damage
04:13'06.781 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 621 Fire damage '''' * * 3103 x .2 = 620.5
04:13'07.765 Cryic's Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 2922 Fire damage
04:13'09.843 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 894 Fire damage ''''' * * 2922*.2 = 584 + 620.5 = 1,204 (wtf)
04:13'11.375 Cryic's Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 3120 Fire damage
04:13'13.578 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 1071 Fire damage ''''' * * 624 + 584 = 1208
3103 * 0.2 = 620.5 as you calculated.
We still have 620.5 left in ignite. New crit arrives, 2922, increasing the ignite stack to 620.5 + 2922 * 0.4 = 1789.3
Half of that number burns on next tick. Thus 894.65 should be expected. Got 894, so it's the right number.
"Rule for Ignite:"
1) Any given second to last Ignite tick is half of the remaining Ignite amount.
2) If new crit arrives before the last tick, new Ignite is summed to the remaining Ignite.
3) If there is no new fire crit between Ignite ticks, rest of the ignite burns away.
Thus, ignites "roll", but you don't gain anything from it, you are just actually delaying the damage you crit earlier.
This are quite some odd numbers... I thought they made ignite roll again?
Now instead the previous ignite dot just wears of after 4 seconds?
I guess I must have been very lucky then with something yesterday with having a 4k ignite tick...
Rolling ignites were intentionally removed / nurfed and won't be coming back.
What they did this patch was fix the most glaring bugs with ignite where back to back crits would cause ignite damage to be entirely lost.
ie. The "fireball crits for 3k, molten armor crits for 120, ignite ticks for 24" situation.
There were some reports on the test server of situation where more than 40% damage was done with strings of crits, it's possible they didn't fix all of those bugs. Most of the time though you will now get your 40% damage bonus no matter what mix of crits you toss at a mob, with the 'delay' mechanic though explained above.
Basically, if you crit between ticks of an ignite, the new damage will be added to what remains and half the new value applied next tick. If you crit before an existing ignite ticks for the first time, the damage gets added, but the ignite dot timer gets reset and won't tick until 2 sec after you stop critting.
Hmm, just wondering how Ignite works with something like Magtheridon's Banish phase.
Say you crit for 3k (1500 doubled becasue of banish) with a scorch, you should get 40% bonus damage = 1200, split over 2 parts = 600 per tick. The banish makes him take double damage, so does he take 1200 per tick, or 600 per tick?
Hmm, just wondering how Ignite works with something like Magtheridon's Banish phase.
Say you crit for 3k (1500 doubled becasue of banish) with a scorch, you should get 40% bonus damage = 1200, split over 2 parts = 600 per tick. The banish makes him take double damage, so does he take 1200 per tick, or 600 per tick?
Don't think so, because in 2.0 they specifically removed ignite "double dipping", when ignite DoT was affected by CoE/imp. scorch in addition of said effect on original fire spell.
Originally Posted by zeidrich
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Hmm, just wondering how Ignite works with something like Magtheridon's Banish phase.
Say you crit for 3k (1500 doubled becasue of banish) with a scorch, you should get 40% bonus damage = 1200, split over 2 parts = 600 per tick. The banish makes him take double damage, so does he take 1200 per tick, or 600 per tick?
Maybe it works like Shadowform for Priests. I've noticed that if I cast Shadow Word: Pain out of SF and then go into SF while the dot is up, the damage changes (the 15% is applied).
So, perhaps the damage reduces. They're similar percentage-based damage modifiers.
Sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm not that familiar with the way mage dps works as fire.
I belive it was stated above that you don't actually gain any damage from having rolling ignites, just delays the time that the damage is done over.
So there is no real benefit in getting large ignite ticks? Or trying to keep ignite up?
I was under the influence that after a mage crits with a fireball that they will either scorch or fireblast in hopes of getting a crit to lengthen the time of the ignite.
I'm an amateur when it comes to mage dps, so please enlighten me.
Sorry if this is a stupid question, I'm not that familiar with the way mage dps works as fire.
I belive it was stated above that you don't actually gain any damage from having rolling ignites, just delays the time that the damage is done over.
So there is no real benefit in getting large ignite ticks? Or trying to keep ignite up?
I was under the influence that after a mage crits with a fireball that they will either scorch or fireblast in hopes of getting a crit to lengthen the time of the ignite.
I'm an amateur when it comes to mage dps, so please enlighten me.
This is what we used to do, untill blizzard changed it.
There's no reason to keep ignite up in TBC.
Sorry, I don't mean to de-rail the thread, another question regarding mage damage.
So during a normal mage damage cycle, the only occasion they will use scorch is to keep fire vunerability up, and fire blast if they have the mana to do so?
I believe a mage from my guild told me that the normal cycle is something like 6 x Fireball, Scorch repeat?
Also, should I expect all of my mages to be doing fairly similiar damage if they are within ~50 spell damage of each other, or are there other variables that may differentiate their damage, like style of play our anything, or is it just simply, spam fireball?
I mean, if the art of ignites no longer applies, mage damage seems fairly simplistic and purely based around gear for the most part.
I mean, if the art of ignites no longer applies, mage damage seems fairly simplistic and purely based around gear for the most part.
It's based more around arcane blast cycles actually, since arcane blast is either your best DPM or DPS spell (depending on the debuff stack). It's no more or less gear based than any other class, which is to say that gear matters a great deal.
As the above poster indicated, if you crit while an Ignite is up, it creates a new Ignite that's set to do (40% of crit damage) + (remaining old ignite damage) over 4 seconds (in two ticks). This is the only way to implement it if you have only one Ignite debuff (unless you allow it to roll).
It's based more around arcane blast cycles actually, since arcane blast is either your best DPM or DPS spell (depending on the debuff stack). It's no more or less gear based than any other class, which is to say that gear matters a great deal.
It is a derail but I'll counter this opinion anyhow. AB cycles are only a DPM or DPS increase if you are specced for using them and for most mages speccing for their use is an overall DPS downgrade. For myself, 10/48/3 (and hence scorchX1, fireballX8) is more damage delivered and more dps in any raid that we are doing.
The primary use for AB cycles is actually the reduced threat componant, they are notoriously latency-sensitive and never an overall damage increase unless you run without a shadow priest. Even then they usually fail at overall damage delivered due to the spec itself being inefficient.
It's based more around arcane blast cycles actually, since arcane blast is either your best DPM or DPS spell (depending on the debuff stack). It's no more or less gear based than any other class, which is to say that gear matters a great deal.
*IF* you are a deep arcane spec. For a deep fire spec, fireball will do more dps than your arcane blast.
To Drakul, +dmg isn't the only stat you should be worried about... +hit and crit are also very important. Latency might be one thing to look into too if one of your mages is underperforming... using stopcasting can help a great deal in that situation.
It's already been explained above, just thought I would toss out this recent test (before the above test actually) which shows how as many as 4 crits during scorch spam can be cast before the ignite ticks, yet never losing the damage as pre 2.1:
03:42'11.421 Cryic's Scorch hits Dr. Boom for 993 Fire damage
03:42'13.328 Cryic's Scorch hits Dr. Boom for 1008 Fire damage
03:42'14.906 Cryic's Scorch crits Dr. Boom for 1466 Fire damage (save 293 for future ignite)
03:42'16.703 Cryic's Scorch crits Dr. Boom for 1483 Fire damage (save 296 for future ignite)
03:42'18.656 Cryic's Scorch hits Dr. Boom for 984 Fire damage
03:42'18.859 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 590 Fire damage **293+296 = 589
03:42'20.593 Cryic's Scorch hits Dr. Boom for 994 Fire damage
03:42'20.859 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 590 Fire damage (same, ignite fades)
03:42'22.390 Cryic's Scorch hits Dr. Boom for 1030 Fire damage
03:42'24.453 Cryic's Scorch hits Dr. Boom for 984 Fire damage
03:42'26.265 Cryic's Scorch crits Dr. Boom for 1499 Fire damage (save 299.)
03:42'27.921 Cryic's Scorch crits Dr. Boom for 1554 Fire damage (save 310. )
03:42'29.546 Cryic's Scorch crits Dr. Boom for 1561 Fire damage (save 312)
03:42'31.671 Cryic's Scorch hits Dr. Boom for 975 Fire damage
03:42'31.890 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 923 Fire damage (299+310+312 = 921ish)
03:42'33.218 Cryic's Scorch hits Dr. Boom for 999 Fire damage
03:42'33.968 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 923 Fire damage
03:42'35.281 Cryic's Scorch crits Dr. Boom for 1454 Fire damage
03:42'36.656 Cryic's Scorch crits Dr. Boom for 1492 Fire damage
03:42'38.781 Cryic's Scorch hits Dr. Boom for 985 Fire damage
03:42'39.093 Cryic's Ignite dots Dr. Boom for 590 Fire damage
So during a normal mage damage cycle, the only occasion they will use scorch is to keep fire vunerability up, and fire blast if they have the mana to do so?
Even ignoring mana constraints, fireblast is of questionable value at a certain point in gear. It shined in the era of rolling ignites if used reactively but at this point (raid buffed) it really is only a finisher on trash/spawns or while repositioning. I certainly don't use it as part of my standing-still rotation as it is a dpm loss and also a dps decrease.
Also, should I expect all of my mages to be doing fairly similiar damage if they are within ~50 spell damage of each other, or are there other variables that may differentiate their damage, like style of play our anything, or is it just simply, spam fireball?
I mean, if the art of ignites no longer applies, mage damage seems fairly simplistic and purely based around gear for the most part.
In my eyes mage DPS is the most luckbased DPS in the game.
Yup, all we usually do is Fireball as much as we can, and a scorch right in time to keep the fire vulnerabilty up. Keeping the amount of times you scorch at minimum increases your DPS.
However, besides just fireball and scorch spamming the luck factor comes in.
Some mages can get very lucky during a fight and get alot more crits then the other mages (causing em to be op top of the DPS meters if they have the same gear.) Some mages can get very unlucky during a fight and get alot more resists then the other mages (causing em to be op the bottom of the mage DPS meters.)
Offcourse gear like +%crit and +%hit helps, but it's still luckbased how much crits or hits you effectively will get. In theory even a person with 99% critchance and 99% hitchance could get 5 resists in a row followed by 5 normal hits (although the chance is low, the chance exists).
Following above "philosophy" for me +spelldamage seems like the most important stat for a mage... +hit and +crit are just there to make you a bit more "lucky" with crits or resists. But still there's nothing that will guarantee you to get less resists then some other mage just because you have alot more hit% chance. It's still luck based wether you'll get resists or crits.. .
Explanation: My last 2 scorch crits popped up within the same .1 second as the ignite tick, making the game "ignore" the ignite damage it did, and continue on as if it didn't happen. Specifically in this example the 1587 scorch crit the same second the 892 ignite tick did, and the same second the second 1209 crit did (the extra ignite damage was sprinkled over those 2 928 ignite ticks, which shouldn't have happened with a 1617 scorch). 1209 + 892 = 2100(1) damage bonus
Feel free to test it yourselves, all you have to do is crit right when an ignite tick pops up.
05/24/07, 10:39 PM
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