Rivkah

Sorry it was mostly jomzjomz's post that confused me, since he posted a 2:1 macro then described a 1:1.5 rotation.

 

Shikimaru

Hi all,


Well I came here for opinions on what to do now that I got a DST drop =)

The World of Warcraft Armory
(I might of logged out with Gorefiend's cape on, I can use Cloak of Fiends though)

I've only got 2 pieces of T6 so I do not have the set bonus yet, but I'm just wondering since I got 97(122 with Cloak of Fiends) passive haste + DST, should I go 7/20/34 anyways?

If so, would the 3:2 be the most dps output for that spec? Appreciate any tips =)

(Right now using 1:1.5 rotation with my current spec on the armory.)

 

jomzjomz

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot

This is the 2:1 Macro IF you do not hand-weave a multi/autoshot every 2 sets of auto/steady shot. I do not use the castsequence style because my latency is high.

Actually, this macro is a 2:1, a 3:2 and a 1:1 depending on what your total haste currently is. It also becomes a 1:1.5 and 1:1.4 if you hand weave multi/arcane shot.

 

Whitefyst

The reason that I recommend a 0/20/41 spec for someone in your situation includes the following:

1) In general, SV hunters are a crit spec with many of our talents deriving from crit. More crit is generally a good thing for us since it not only directly increases our DPS from criting more often but also indirectly affects our DPS by increasing the amount of focus our pet generates increasing its DPS, increasing our EW uptime and therefore both our personal and raid DPS, and the amount of mana that TotH returns increasing our DPS uptime.

2) I have found from analysis that in the vast majority of situations that the 0/20/41 build with a properly performed rotation will out DPS the other options for someone without much haste or a DST. I have done comparison analyses of my character's current gear across various specs on numerous occassions and have always come to the conclusion that 0/20/41 was best. However, do not take my word for it, check it out yourself since there are situations with the right gear, rotations, and strategy that another spec may work better.

3) The utility of Readiness. Do not underestimate its value. Not only can you get extra Rapid Fires to increase your DPS, but you get extra other abilities as well. Extra MDs to keep the tanks threat up (especially early in the fight) so that the DPS has a higher threat ceiling under which to work. Extra FDs (especially early) to manage your threat and allow maximum DPS. At the start of boss fights, this is how I usually take advantage of REadiness:
- Pull boss to MT via MD
- As soon as get 4 hits, pop AP trinket and Rapid Fire
- FD if get close to tanks threat level (and even if I do)
- Hit Readiness
- Hit MD to raise the tanks threat by my next 3 naturally occurring shots from my rotation
- Hit Rapid Fire (with other AP trinket or AP drums if using those instead of haste works better)
- Use FD again (I often find that I need to use FD again before the 30s that it would have normally taken to CD)
- After this use abilities and trinkets as available at your discretion

It is also nice for extra Deterrences, if you have it, while kiting stuff or trying to stay alive until FD gets off CD.

4) The difficulty some people have with ideally switching rotations during QS procs. If you do not switch rotations properly, you will lose a lot of the benefit of teh IAotH spec.

On the other hand, there are many people that in application do better with other builds and rotations, but I think that vast majority of those situations being successful is because of the difficulty of properly implementing the 1:1.5 or 1:1.4 rotations in game for some folks versus the ease of a steady shot spam.

Concerning gear, stacking agility is an important goal for a SV hunter, but we need to be careful doing so. Sometimes items with more agility do not provide the most overall raid DPS. It doesn't help much to increase your agility by 8 resulting in a 4 DPS gain to the rest of the raid if your personal DPS suffers by more than 4. The raid loses out then.

My goal is not to stack agility but to increase my overalll DPS contribution to the raid, of which stacking agility is often a major contributor to doing that. If you are not using it already, I suggest using Cheeky's spreadsheet for comparing gear. When I do the comparison, I check the change in my personal DPS versus the change in the raid DPS from EW (this is the change in average EW x 2 for a rough estimate of raid benefit - assumes 0.25 AP to DPS conversion and 8 other equivalent physical DPS). As long as the net DPS is positive, the item is an upgrade. Check out your suggested gear swaps in Cheeky's to determine whether they are an improvement. If you gain only a little DPS from the change, I would stay with the 2 T5 pieces since the extra time your pet is alive and contributing to your DPS will probably make up for the loss in the gear comparison. Its a judgement call though if its close.

You are 19 hit rating over the cap of 95 though, so if you have anything better to replace any of your to hit items, I would suggest doing so.

And the badge crossbow, when used properly, is a huge improvement over the Sunfury, but check it out yourself.

Concerning rotations, if all you are using is the BM rotation (2:1/3:2/1:1) with your weapon speed and gear that provides no extra benefit to steady shot, your are several gimping your DPS, especially when at low haste effect levels. As an example using my character, below if a comparison of what various rotations theoretically do for me unhasted and at Rapid Fire haste (assuming no LotP or GoA buffs):

1:1.5 => 1597 DPS and 250 average EW AP and 1618 DPS and 251 EW AP
1:1.4 => 1614 DPS and 251 average EW AP and 1694 DPS and 254 EW AP
2:1 => 1478 DPS and 246 average EW AP and 1504 DPS and 248 EW AP
3:2 => 1467 DPS and 246 average EW AP and 1614 DPS and 252 EW AP
1:1 => 1353 DPS and 239 average EW AP and 1818 DPS and 259 EW AP

As can be seen, the 2:1 and 3:2 are vastly inferior at both unhasted and rapid fire than the 1:1.4 rotation (and 1:1.5). In fact from 0 to 1000 haste, the 1:1.4 vastly outperforms the 2:1 and 3:2 since it does more shots per second by squeezing in arcane shots and multishots between auto-steadies. Although the 1:1 starts way worse, its performance improves more with haste and outperforms the after about 400 haste. Now these results are because I have the badge crossbow and have added enough passive haste (over 25) to make the 1:1.4 always outperform the 1:1.5. Thus, my optimal rotation is the 1:1.4 from 0 to 400 haste and then the 1:1 after.

For your weapon speed, I suggest using the 1:1.5 rotation unhasted and until about 100 haste, then the 1:1.4 from that until about 500 haste, and then the 1:1 after.

And for the record, although MS has a high mana cost, it also provides the most damage of all the shots you should be using and does better damage per mana than arcane shot.

I really do not see how a 2:1/3:2/1:1 rotation should be doing better for you with a 0/20/41 spec over a 1:1.5/1:1.4/1:1 rotation. Unless you are having problems ideally implementing the 1:1.5/1:1.4/1:1, that rotation should theoretically perform much better for you.

Oh, and 1800 is nice DPS on Gorefiend for a 0/20/41 spec and no DST.

First, no offense, but your gear is not almost the same as Loh's. He has about 80 more unbuffed agility (hence 20 more AP on EW proc), 149 AP, and about 1% more crit unbuffed due to about 4-5 pieces that are inferior to his. That accounts for a significant DPS difference. Also, what raid buffs you get play a part as well. Another factor is that you may not be implementing the rotations ideally and switching at the optimal haste switch points. Around 1500-1600 seems like a decent DPS on Teron with your gear, but anything below that is low and indicates some possible rotation problems.

 

myonions

Yeah, I am considering the readiness spec myself - for exactly these reasons. I was MS for years and losing Scatter Shot, Silencing shot and Improved Multi-shot to go SV for the good of the raid was a hard choice when you enjoy both PVE and PVP. But - then I play around with the talents and realise that I only have to lose silencing shot to respec. Winner!

I was still holding on to scatter shot though.

As you mention, with an extra deterrence - maybe I can manage without it. 2 x traps in PVP when the player has used their PVP trinket to escape the first can probably be even more effective than a short stun.....not to mention all of the other benefits you have mentioned here.

Thanks for that - i'll respec tomorrow....and tell the raid it's to add 2 x MD to the tank for the good of the raid ...but really it was I didn't want to let go of that last bit of MS spec that I had. Damn Bliz for nerfing MS so much - we pwned in T1/T2 instances.

 

Slager

Thank you soooo much for the thoughtful, indepth feedback Whitefyst. I'm going to give 20/41 a try and see if i can get used to manually weaving in shots more often.

 

Windarrow

Got ignored. Reposting :\. Edited a few things over the past few days.

I've been playing as survival for a few months now. It's also my first character.

Armory: Windarrow

Unbuffed stats(as of new spec):
Agi: 856
AP w/o aoth: 2098
Crit: 37.38%

I could have stacked more agility, but I decided that balancing out my AP, crit and agi would provide much better dps from myself, while losing just a little on the raid dps pov.

My guild is having a bit of trouble with ssc/tk at the moment, and I don't know whether to expect progress in either of them. Given that, how should I be upgrading my gear, and what should I be aiming for in terms of upgrades at this point in time? My targets as of now are to get the chest 3 ring from za and another dagger of bad mojo for armor pen. stack and also an extra charge of superior mana oil, and Ranger General's if we work harder on ssc. Is there anything else I should be aiming for?

Reading up about a hunter not using macros being 'blasphemy' in one of the earlier pages, i'm planning to start using them macros more if they will indeed help my output in raids. However, apart from convinience, how else does a macro contribute to better output from your hunter? The macro gives me a sense of fixed routine in my rotations, and I really prefer being flexible. I use quartz as a shot timer too.

My dps(with 0/27/34) on gruul reaches up to just above 1000 with groundslams and caveins, za bosses, mainly hexlord and zj range between 950 to again, just above 1000. I switched to a 0/20/41 spec a week ago, my dps now has dipped, to about 875 to 930 range, I'll learn to use WWS so I can get some logs up too.

Lastly, which rotation would be complementing my gear the most at this point in time? From reading, it seems to be a 1:1.4 or 1:1.5

 

Wunlastri

Ok, finally got a useful WWS report from 7/22 vs. Brut. I got burned twice....in almost a row so that's one excuse. I normally run around people to get to burn spots, do you guys run through Brut? Ever since the latest patch, Manito's macro been acting weird for me.

Wow Web Stats

My ping is around 150 most of the night and my fps is around 60 if I recall correctly.

 

Whitefyst

Sorry if you got ignored, but it is not easy for the small set of people that reply to posts like yours to reply to everyone's, especially when similar stuff is being said over and over.

Your gemming of 5 +10 crit gems is hurting your DPS and the raid's and not helping it. The reason for this is that crit does not scale, but agility does with LR and BoK. Let's compare the benefit of three +10 crit gems versus 3 +10 agility gems (leaving two in case you get a helm with a meta socket).

1) 30 crit rating = 1.35% crit
2) 30 agility => 38 agility with LR and BoK => 38 AP, 0.95% crit, 9.5 moe EW AP assuming 100% uptime for 19 more raid DPS, 76 armor and 1.52% dodge

Comparing the two, option 2 provides 38 AP, 9.5 EW AP for 19 raid DPS, 76 armor, and 1.52% dodge at the cost of only 0.40% crit. It's pretty clear to me which is better. The increased agility upping your base EW AP affects EW a lot more than 0.40% crit, especially with being 3/3 EW. That extra crit only returns 0.1% more mana from 2.3 TotH and provides little additional pet focus. For me, the change to the 3 +10 crit gems lowers my personal DPS by more than 7 and my average EW AP by more than 8 AP. That is a loss in about 23 raid DPS, plus the survivability increases in armor and doge versus the small mana gain from TotH. Suggest checking it out in Cheeky's to see the full theoretcial impact for you character. If you switch the gems out, 1 of the 2 I would keep would be in your wrists since that is the only one with a good socket bonus that you are getting.

Since you have the badge crossbow, I would suggest acquiring an item with about 25 haste or more than is an upgrade. That additional haste will allow you to use the 1:1.4 rotation (see other posts for what that is if you do not know) unhasted and until around 430 haste, after which you should use a 1:1. Suggested ways are the badge chest or if you can get 4 hearts of darkness, the crafted haste bracers, or the ZA cloak. Compared to your current gear, upgrading your chest would be my preferred suggestion.

My biggest concern about your gear is your low mana pool. I assume you are having mana problems unless you are in a mana support group. Are you having mana problems? If so, look to replace some of your 4 leather items for comparable or better DPS mail items. The int on the mail will not only help increase your mana pool but also increase your mana regen if forced to use AoV. Nothing worng with wearing a little leather as long as you can maintain your DPS uptime with your max DPS rotation. BEing able to use the 1:1.4 rotation instead of 1:1.5 rotation as your base will help reduce mana consumption a little as well. Duel weilding with two mana oils and using major mageblood elixers will help as well.

Concerning macros, I believe that there is already enough discussion on that topic already and do not want to talk more on it. Whatever you can get to work for you to most ideally implement your rotations is what is best.

 

Barradin

Windarrow,

I agree with whitefyst. You should look to pick up a little bit more mana... if you're running out or have to switch to viper you're giong to regret it, but you know whether you're running out or not.

As far as macros... I would consider getting the /cast/cast (or "3:2") macro. The reason is that:

A. Mashing that macro is identical to mashing your steady shot button anyways in terms of shot rotation (try it out).
B. You can macro your kill commands and (if applicable) lightning breath abilities to the macro so you don't have to manually hit them... which will be difficult when you are manually weaving the 1:1.X rotations.

You can (and should) manually weave the multis and arcanes as necessary using this macro.

I would also pick up the badge 2h axe if you can. You don't need too much haste at this point with the badge bow but it's still a wicked weapon for you.

 

Windarrow

Yes, sorry about that. I didn't mean it in a "wtf reply to me now!" way. Just informing that it's a repost. With regards to the 5 crit gems, I was just thinking that an unbuffed crit rate of < 37% wouldnt be enough to maintain EW uptime as 90% or more. I read about the theory and calculations for uptime a while ago, is there a mod that measures the total uptime of EW? The ZA cloak got ninjaed off me twice now, but that's a different story, i'll just stick to grinding for it.

With mana oil and chain chugging pots, I sort of make it to the end of long fights with some mana, especially when we have somewhat incapable raid dps. For short raid bosses like the ones in ZA, I usually manage not brilliantly, but just okay. End up with about just below 1000 mana. Sometimes during raids these days viper has more uptime than hawk to be able to manage mana properly, I suppose that would come under "forced to use AoV". Other than that, I ocassionally have a shammy in my group, mana spring does help. What would be an idea mana pool? 7k-8k? Thanks.

About the macros, you're saying use a macro for steadyshot (w/lightningbreath+killcommand) right? Currently for me without macros it's like training finger dexterity :\.

Regarding the axe however, I did consider it as an offspec item, but as SV I don't think we should be using that due to the big loss in agility? Shouldn't a double Dagger Of Bad Mojo do better with sv hunts?

 

Sayr

Heyall.

I just made the switch from BM to Survival (was running out of +hit to make cap). My current spec (0/20/41) chooses a couple points of efficiency over go for the throat. I am wondering if this is a boneheaded thing to do. Is there a thread/post about it i missed?


I've been BM for quite some time so I'd appreciate any niggling spec/gear critiques if someone is bored.

 

Kaetrii

Well... even unbuffed you're getting 4.6% mana efficiency from one point of TotH (35% crit * .33 * .4 = 4.6) as apposed to 2% from one point of Efficiency. You decide. As for your gear and spec... all looks like a great start to me besides the one extra Efficiency point.

 

Serf

Repost due to being the last post of a page when people were alreadyd ealing with something else at the time.


Only changes now are that I may luckily be getting into Hyjal or BT, possibly both, sometime soon.

 

Trojansgreed

Hi everyone.
I have been reading through these forums for a while now, mainly the Survival class mechanic discussions and i have not seen any EW calculators that were available to download. So i have been working on my spreadsheet today and have just finished it.
Here is a link to the download. The password is EJtribute
MegaShare.com Free Webhosting

Let me know what you think and if you think my values are wrong.

Many thanks to Rivkah for these values Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics .

 

Barradin

Wind,

yes, use the 3:2 or cast/cast macro with the kill command/lightning breath line in it so you can cast all three of those spells with one button and avoid possible mistakes by having to hit 3 different buttons repeatedly.

You're right that you're losing about 60 agility by using badge axe over the trollbane... I would make the decision between the two as follows:

A. if you are using badge bow, get the badge axe as well since it will be VERY Difficult to maintain a 1:1.5 rotation with that weapons speed. Youl'll be forced to use a 1:1.4 rotation and so speeding it up with the haste from the badge axe will be quite useful
B. if you're using a 3.0 speed weapon, use only as much haste as you need to keep a 1:1.5 rotation going... this means that the 55 haste from the badge axe will likely make you shoot way too fast and so you would do well with trollbane... Either way... you might consider the S3 axe in this case.

 

Crosell

The World of Warcraft Armory

Okay so, right now my guild is getting ready to jump into BT. In Hyjal im doing about 1100-1300 dps on normal fights, and like 1600-1700 on a boss with low armor.

-I have a DST
-1:1.5 rotation currently
-Have badge bow
-I use Ancient Amani Longbow for 3.0
-You can see my spec on armory 0/27/34

My question is, with my current setup, what can I change to increase my DPS.

 

Zombeana

Hmm,

After reading a lot of replies here i was shocked at the amount of DPS people are claiming they do. 1800DPS? 1600DPS?
i have 4 set bonus of tier 6 and i normally get around 1300 DPS in BT. I use 1:1:5 rotation and use a wind serpent with go for the throat etc. raid buffed my agility is around 1300 with GOA and crit chance 52% with LOP. I should be doing more DPS? When I don’t have GOA or LOP its around 1100DPS o.O!
My unbuffed agility is 941
Crit chance 38.01%

The World of Warcraft Armory
That is my armory page and my current spec, slightly weird but it gives me more agility.

If anyone could give me any advice on how to increase my DPS? Or any item/spec changes that would benefit. I would appreciate it..I dont really understand how these people are claiming 1600DPS/1800DPS with surv spec and i want to know!

Thanks
Sarah

 

ohrion

Without a WWS report we can't really tell you what you're doing wrong. You're spec isn't helping your DPS much I would go for one of the standards discussed here at length depending on your gear level.

 

Slager

I've managed to get my hands on a few hearts of darkness recently and crafted the Bindings of Lightning Reflexes. I'm also next in line for Cloak of Fiends whenever it drops but I have a question as to where to spend my badges next. Should I get the badge chest and further increase my haste (at the cost of almost 1% crit) or get the badge xbow for higher dps (but at the cost of 22agi/25ap and some crit over sunfury bow because of losing troll racial for bows). I've put them both into cheeky's spreadsheet but the both provide roughly the same boost from what I can see although I may have some settings wrong or something as I am somewhat newbish at cheeky's spreadsheet.