SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1 - Page 101

muffpox · 07/28/08, 2:40 PM

I apologize for double posting but the quality of discussion here merited an effort to show something in support of my claim.

I used Rivkah’s EW calculator: Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics

Assuming a raid makeup including:
2 rogues, a dps warrior, enhancement shaman, a ret pali, feral druid, protection warrior, 1 BM hunter and 1 survival hunter

[at 1000 agil] that's a total of 673 dps gained with a 100% expose weakness uptime [+22 TPS].

From 1020 agility your raid will gain 255 AP for a total of 686.23 dps gain assuming 100% uptime. In addition your protection warrior will gain 22.44 TPS

I used 100% uptime for 1020 agil only to compare with the set Rhivkah gave. From the 2% agility increase of Combat Experience the raid gains what looks to be only about 13 dps and maybe one more threat every sec for the tank. I am less sure of the benefits of hybrid versus 0-20-41. Of course the given make-up could easily include more melee and hunters in a raid group. This would escalate the importance of max agility. Is it enough though?

Namarus · 07/28/08, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

...
1:1.5 => 1597 DPS and 250 average EW AP and 1618 DPS and 251 EW AP
1:1.4 => 1614 DPS and 251 average EW AP and 1694 DPS and 254 EW AP
2:1 => 1478 DPS and 246 average EW AP and 1504 DPS and 248 EW AP
3:2 => 1467 DPS and 246 average EW AP and 1614 DPS and 252 EW AP
1:1 => 1353 DPS and 239 average EW AP and 1818 DPS and 259 EW AP

As can be seen, the 2:1 and 3:2 are vastly inferior at both unhasted and rapid fire than the 1:1.4 rotation (and 1:1.5). In fact from 0 to 1000 haste, the 1:1.4 vastly outperforms the 2:1 and 3:2 since it does more shots per second by squeezing in arcane shots and multishots between auto-steadies. Although the 1:1 starts way worse, its performance improves more with haste and outperforms the after about 400 haste. Now these results are because I have the badge crossbow and have added enough passive haste (over 25) to make the 1:1.4 always outperform the 1:1.5. Thus, my optimal rotation is the 1:1.4 from 0 to 400 haste and then the 1:1 after.

....

I was thinking about this information, and do you have an OOM time for these different rotations. It's all well and good to keep these rotations going like the 1:1.4 and 1:1.5 however, I have found them to use excessive amounts of mana. This results in having to use (fel) mana pots rather than haste pots. Furthermore, do you include drum rotations, heroism usage.

Pretty much all the top survival dps WWS reports that I have seen have hunters using 2:1/3:2/1:1 changing rotations depending on their current haste.

Rivkah · 07/28/08, 2:46 PM

Well the big issue with combat experience is the amount of agility it gives you is teeny. If you're running at 900 agility unbuffed, that's a whopping 18 agility, buffed at 1200 is 24 agility. Instead you could be gaining 2% total dps. I ran the math on my calculator (which for the record has estimated numbers for dps and will never be 100% accurate) with my typical raid makeup and 24 agility gains the raid 18.43 dps with 90% uptime. Assuming you are putting out 1300 dps, 2% dps gain would be 26 dps. So ya I know on paper combat expertise looks good for a survival hunter, but it doesn't seem to be as good an RDPS gain as ranged weapon specialization. Plus in smaller environments (5-10 man) or with less physical dps the gain would be even less.

I will say that my dps was similar to yours shortly after I hit 4 pc T6. I don't think I was timing my shots optimally or something but really when I swapped out my belt for the haste leather belt (only haste I had at the time), put on my DST, switched to 7/20/34 and switched to the heavy steady rotation, my dps went up like 200+. So for me it was a good change. However my gun seems to be easier to reach the sweet spot on haste than the 3.0 weapons most survival hunters are using, so that probably made it easier for me. Now that I have a shivering felspine I'm at a fairly good speed and I've been very happy with the change. I don't know if it will work better for you though since you have a different speed weapon and different gear.

In reference to the WWS you posted, Council is a very bad fight for dps measurement, I don't think I've ever broken 1400 on that fight because there's just so much movement involved and I have to keep up scorpid sting as well. I also notice you're the only hunter. I've noticed that when I'm the only hunter it tends to hurt my dps some, probably due to the way the hunter's mark buff scaling works- it takes longer to ramp up. Illidan is also terrible for dps measuring. I tend to do my best dps on fights like Teron and Rage. I find RoS not so good for dps measurement though because of the terrible pushback in phase 2, plus it tends to be so threat tight for me that one FD resist can kill my output.

I've read the recent analysis posted by Whitefyst and it's very interesting but I have to say that basing an entire analysis of shot rotations on Cheekys may not make it completely accurate. Cheekys can only model things so well and I have a hard time believing that all the conventional wisdom currently being followed in the survival community is wrong because analysis of spreadsheet data says so. It may be one of those real world application versus on paper sort of problems or it may just be that people just aren't as good at reproducing perfect rotations so the heavy steady style leads to people doing better in practice, but based on my own experience and what I've seen people doing in general, I have to take it all with a grain of salt. The fact that nobody seems to be able to consistently agree on what the perfect spec and rotation is for survival (even for a specific gear set) indicates to me that the differences aren't as big as folks make them out to be in the first place and that the variations have more to do with playstyle.

I'm really looking forward to this expansion so we can stop arguing about perfect shot rotations and get back to arguing about basic specs

Rivkah · 07/28/08, 2:51 PM

Hee muffpox, I was typing my reply while you posted yours- my numbers were based off of my guild's usual makeup with 2 rogues, a ret pali, 2 feral druids, 2 BM hunters, survival hunter, dps warrior and prot warrior.

Namarus brings up a good point too, when I switched to heavy steady I had a lot less mana issues, even though I went from 2 points in thrill of the hunt to 1 and dropped a few points in efficiency. When I was running a 1:1.5 I found on a lot of fights that even with chain potting I couldn't maintain it that well, I would get low on mana and have to drop my specials out of the rotation for a bit to make it to my next pot timer. I rarely am that bad off with the heavy steady rotation, although on a few fights (Shaz, Council) I still have to slow down my shots a bit to get by, but I also keep scorpid up constantly on those fights which is a severe mana drain.

Shikimaru · 07/28/08, 3:18 PM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

switched to 7/20/34 and switched to the heavy steady rotation, my dps went up like 200+. So for me it was a good change.

Is this "heavy steady rotation" the standard BM 3:2?

I got a DST recently and have about 122(97 if I use Gorefiend's cape) passive haste, but don't have my 4 pc T6 yet. Not sure if I should too respec to 7/20/34 or stick with my current 0/2X/3X spec with the 1:1.5 rotation =/

The World of Warcraft Armory

Rivkah · 07/28/08, 4:03 PM

Yes, heavy steady rotation is the rotation created by the BM 3:2 macro. I've been using that term to describe it, since /cast /cast macro is too unwieldy and describing it as a 3:2 for survival is pretty inaccurate. Since the macro is designed to create a rotation with a heavier use of steady shots than auto shots, I think it's a good name

Leighlu · 07/28/08, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by muffpox

I apologize for double posting but the quality of discussion here merited an effort to show something in support of my claim.

I used Rivkah’s EW calculator: Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics

I haven't seen the basis for the calculations on Rivkah's site, but it seems extremely high to me.

Using the previously accepted AP to dps conversion of .2 to .3 dps/AP with your 255 AP yields 357 to 536 dps, assuming 100% uptime. In practice, I think the low end of the conversion factors tend to be closer to reality.

As such, I'm convinced that the Combat Experience talent is not worth sacrificing either Readiness or Imp AotH in any SV build.

germanboy3383 · 07/28/08, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by myonions

Personally I am going for Cloak of Fiends (ZA) and Shivering Felspine (Sunwell Trash) to get me near enough to the 80 haste mark but there are other options: Bindings of Lightning Reflexes (BT Trash Pattern), Valestalker Girdle (MH) and Hard Khorium Band (Sunwell Trash Pattern - assuming you can find someone to make you one for a reasonable fee).
.

80 haste including a DST or not? i am asking because i am trying to figure out if i could go 3:2 heavy SS rotation with only that little haste. i am sure its more viable to do it with a DST but would a 3:2 without DST be better than the current 1.5:1 rotation i use now?

Rivkah · 07/28/08, 5:19 PM

Leighlu, some of the estimated dps numbers I'm using are from class spreadsheets (if I recall at least the hunter and rogue ones are), some have been passed onto me by people playing those class/specs who follow the theorycraft. I have been making adjustments here and there as people give them to me, but obviously the numbers are never going to be completely accurate since dps gain from AP depends on many gear factors and is not consistent across the board. If you know of specific corrections that need to be made please let me know. It is clear however from what I've found thus far that dps gain for AP varies significantly depending on class, which is why I tried to build the calculator to be customized to raid makeup.

Regardless of whether you use the generalized AP numbers or my calculator, it seems to be pretty clear that combat expertise is not preferable to ranged weapon specialization. Whether a readiness or imp hawk build is preferable to a ranged weapon specialization build however is another story. I think it's pretty clear that you never want to use a heavy steady rotation with a heavy marks build, but with a 1:1.5 rotation it's less clear as to which one comes out ahead.

Rivkah · 07/28/08, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by germanboy3383

80 haste including a DST or not? i am asking because i am trying to figure out if i could go 3:2 heavy SS rotation with only that little haste. i am sure its more viable to do it with a DST but would a 3:2 without DST be better than the current 1.5:1 rotation i use now?

The 80 haste number only works really well from what I understand if you are also under the effect of drums of battle most of the time. Otherwise you would need more haste to reach 3:2. According to the haste calculator, at 80 haste with a 3.0 speed weapon you get to 2.48 speed which is enough to maintain a 2:1 rotation. If quickshots procs you will only be at 2.16 speed which is still not fast enough to proc into a 3:2. With drums alone with 80 haste you will be at 2.37, but with drums and quickshots you will be at 2.06 which is a proper 3:2. The DST alone with 80 passive haste will also bring you to 2.07 which is a 3:2 (with drums it's 1.99). Drums + DST + quickshots is 1.73 which is a 1:1. In order to get into a 3:2 with quickshots and no other procs, you would need at least 126 passive haste to reach a 2.1s.

I believe the theory is that if you don't have the DST and you don't have a solid drum rotation, you're better off going the readiness route for the extra rapid fires which will proc you into 1:1 rather than relying on quick shots hasting you without actually getting you into a better rotation. I haven't really tested it personally though, I'm just relaying what I've seen conveyed by others.

myonions · 07/29/08, 5:35 AM

Originally Posted by ohrion

Maybe you missed the analysis done recently about shot rotations and maximizing DPS.

Essentially, weaving arcane and multi shots when possible should in theory produce better DPS than a 2:1 by a fair amount and a 3:2 by a reasonable amount as well. The only time you're better off just spamming auto and steady shots is when you hit the 1:1 haste level.

With your gear (Zombeana) I would suggest the 20/41 spec (as myonions did) and I would stick to the 1.5:1 rotation for the most part. See where you end up with those changes.

The reason I said that is because some ppl here showed their WWS getting over 2K on Brutallus with 80 haste and using only Manito's so it was good to kinda see evidence of it working the high numbers.

I do agree though, in theory you should get more weaving in the Arcanes and Multis.

Personally, when affected by lots of haste like Bloodlust or Rapid Fire I always use Manito's only as it adapts automatically to the changes in haste.

When not, or just being affected by smaller amounts of haste like drums I use Either Manitos and weave in Arcanes and Multis or I go back to my old "All Out" macro:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/castsequence !Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

I think if you read all of the posts here you have enough things to test to keep you busy for a while

I know it kept me busy...poor Dr.Boom....

Serf · 07/29/08, 6:34 AM

has anyone ever experienced trouble using the /cast /cast macro over using a /castsequence macro? It seems even when hasted to/under 1.50 speed autoshots, I still end up half the time chain-casting Steadies, while the cast-sequence might delay by a fraction of a second but keeps the two shots in sequence.

QuiggyB · 07/29/08, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by Serf

has anyone ever experienced trouble using the /cast /cast macro over using a /castsequence macro? It seems even when hasted to/under 1.50 speed autoshots, I still end up half the time chain-casting Steadies, while the cast-sequence might delay by a fraction of a second but keeps the two shots in sequence.

Steady chaining remains a serious problem for people using the steady spam macro until they get enough passive haste to let it work properly. Generally speaking worse latency = less required passive haste to get things working smoothly. This absolutely comes down to a situation that is different for each player. Your latency will determine what level of passive haste you need to not chain steadies using the /cast /cast macro. Until you reach that point you should use one of the rotations whitefyst has posted about in the last several pages - 1.4:1, 1.5:1 or work out some other mechanism for you to get the desired result. It takes a lot of work w/ dr boom and recount to work out something that allows you to produce max sv dps until you get enough gear to allow chain mashing the button to work. Failing that you should spec BM until you get the gear. Nobody needs 900dps SV hunters in raids clinging to the "look at all the dps my expose weakness proc makes" thing.

Specifically on castsequence as a means of fixing the situation. Aside from the double latency penalty you pay with it, using a 1:1 rotation the delay is ( your_shot_speed - 1.5 ). It generates pretty terrible SV dps. You can do a steady, steady, auto in a cast sequence which does a 2:1. This again generates pretty terrible SV dps. Some things you can do include:

- Slow up on the macro spamming when the auto shot is ready to fire.
- Hand weave in arcane and/or multi (being instants these give plenty of time for auto to fire).
- Create a bunch of macros set up for varying levels of haste, glue your eyes to something like PowerDisplay and switch on the fly. You lose a good bit as each new macro winds up if you ended on the same shot type the new macro begins with though.

Dralmoo · 07/29/08, 3:22 PM

So having read the past 5-6 pages in particular, it seems like there is a lot of a disagreement as to whether the 3:2 is "almost as good" as the 1.5:1, even when on Cheeky's it seems like it would be significantly worse. Possiblybecause it's very hard to maintain a perfect 1.5:1 in the real world?

I'm trying survival for the first timne this week, and my plan as of right now is to run the 1.5:1 with BBOTB. using a steady,!auto /castsequence and manually weaving multi/arcane, with a 28/33 Spec (Barrage). I've read this thread and Rivkah's guide, and played with Cheeky's a lot and this definitely seems like the most personal DPS I can get, although mana may be a problem on long fights.

Does this seem reasonable? Or am I underestimating the value of 4pcT6 and a heavy steady rotation, even with basically 0 haste?

germanboy3383 · 07/29/08, 4:18 PM

cheeky can't properly handle the 3:2 macro, it can not adopt to the haste effect which might drop the 3:2 to a 1:1 macro, instead the spreadsheet handles the 3:2 macro as a classic cast sequence macro, which in theory yields less DPS.
I am new to survival also, but it seems best to go with a non hasted spec (0/xx/xx) first and a 1.5:1 rotation for the first week or so to get a hang of the new spec and shotrotation. after a week try tweaking the spec, gear, group set up, etc.

Originally Posted by QuiggyB

...
- Slow up on the macro spamming when the auto shot is ready to fire.
- Hand weave in arcane and/or multi (being instants these give plenty of time for auto to fire).
- Create a bunch of macros set up for varying levels of haste, glue your eyes to something like PowerDisplay and switch on the fly. You lose a good bit as each new macro winds up if you ended on the same shot type the new macro begins with though.

PowerDisplay has a haste display?

Sinnar · 07/29/08, 5:00 PM

Hello All,

I've been following this thread for many, many months. Took a break from WoW for several weeks, but I'm ready to get back into raiding and I'm looking to optimize my DPS, specifically with regard to macros, since that's really all I can control at the moment. I know there's differing opinions regarding whether or not to use macros, so let's just assume I'm one of those guys that just can't get hand-timing down.

I've seen lots of references to 1.5:1, 1.4:1, 3:2, 2:1 rotations, and I think I pretty much understand that the name reflects specials:auto with the difference being weapon speed under different circumstances (i.e. levels of haste). I wanted to come up with a reference, for myself, of macros that represent some of these rotations.

Looking through these and other forums, I've come up with the following:

-------
With CC
-------

/castsequence Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot

- OR -

/castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/cast Arcane Shot

- OR -

(What I currently use)

/cast !Auto Shot
/castrandom Steady Shot, Arcane Shot

----------
Without CC
----------

/castsequence Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot

- OR -

/castsequence Steady Shot, !Auto Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot

- OR -

(What I currently use)

/cast !Auto Shot
/castrandom Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot

------------
Doesn't Work
------------

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot

- OR -

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot, Multi-Shot

I've indicated the ones that I use, and they provide me with (I think) decent DPS. The macros in the "Doesn't Work" section have been posted in places, but when I try to use them, it never seems to get to the /castrandom part... unless, of course, I was doing something wrong. Also, I know that the /castsequence ones are very dependent on latency (i.e. if I have a high latency, these will gimp my DPS quite a bit).

So, my question:

I'm not necessarily looking for anyone to tell me which one is better than the other. I know I have some Dr. Boom and other testing to do. What I am looking for, is just to make sure that I've included all the possibilities here and, specifically in the case of the /castsequence ones, that I've included the correct number of shots.

Do the /castsequence ones illustrate a 1.5:1 or 1.4:1?

Now, if anyone wants to comment or give me their opinion with regard to the above, I'd appreciate it. Unfortunately, I don't have much of a mind for numbers, so I can't really provide any empirical evidence for any of these... if anyone else would like to, I invite you to do so.

As a side note, I know this isn't the place for a "rate my build" post, but if anyone is bored and wants to take a look and let me know if there are any holes, I'd appreciate it. I've tried to get as much of the best gear that I can for where I'm at, and my guild is making it's way through T5 content ATM. I know I still need some work; specifically, the pieces I need to upgrade ASAP are belt, boots, and, maybe, bracers. I've decided to wait until an upgrade to my [Hauberk of the War Bringer] before getting the chest enchant. Also, been trying to decide if I should start gemming with +10 Agi now or wait a little while yet... they're not cheap.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any comments/opinions.

Dralmoo · 07/29/08, 5:07 PM

I've been using Speedometer to show current attack speed, very helpful.

QuiggyB · 07/29/08, 5:24 PM

PowerDisplay can be configured to show haste level, current weapon speed, crit rate, ranged atk power, etc. Nice and clean.

Sorry I cant trim this any. Here is a shot of my ui from back in February. PowerDisplay is the 4 lines of text to the left of my information bar in the lower center of the screen. 2303 is RAP, 2.52 is current shot speed, 0 haste, 41.67% crit.

Serf · 07/29/08, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by QuiggyB

Steady chaining remains a serious problem for people using the steady spam macro until they get enough passive haste to let it work properly. Generally speaking worse latency = less required passive haste to get things working smoothly. This absolutely comes down to a situation that is different for each player. Your latency will determine what level of passive haste you need to not chain steadies using the /cast /cast macro. Until you reach that point you should use one of the rotations whitefyst has posted about in the last several pages - 1.4:1, 1.5:1 or work out some other mechanism for you to get the desired result. It takes a lot of work w/ dr boom and recount to work out something that allows you to produce max sv dps until you get enough gear to allow chain mashing the button to work. Failing that you should spec BM until you get the gear. Nobody needs 900dps SV hunters in raids clinging to the "look at all the dps my expose weakness proc makes" thing.

Specifically on castsequence as a means of fixing the situation. Aside from the double latency penalty you pay with it, using a 1:1 rotation the delay is ( your_shot_speed - 1.5 ). It generates pretty terrible SV dps. You can do a steady, steady, auto in a cast sequence which does a 2:1. This again generates pretty terrible SV dps. Some things you can do include:

- Slow up on the macro spamming when the auto shot is ready to fire.
- Hand weave in arcane and/or multi (being instants these give plenty of time for auto to fire).
- Create a bunch of macros set up for varying levels of haste, glue your eyes to something like PowerDisplay and switch on the fly. You lose a good bit as each new macro winds up if you ended on the same shot type the new macro begins with though.

Well...

Wow Web Stats

I think my DPS as a SV with full raid buffs, and the equivilently low quality gear, using said macro, was rather good. I play with about 200 MS latency usually, around 40 FPS. I definitely could have used my racials, trinkets, and RF more often to get a better showing, but i don't think it's bad for my first BT run.

EDIT: The other two hunters, Runamuk (MM) and Daorc (BM) are much better geared than me, and utilize the /cast/cast macros. There isn't a huge gap between us, but it basically goes as one usually expects- Bm at top, followed a bit lower by MM, then SV at the bottom for personal DPS but buffing everyone (my agi was at 1144, so that's a lot of EW AP.

)

Rivkah · 07/30/08, 1:27 AM

Serf, I'm looking at your WWS report and it confuses me. First of all I'm not sure why you're raiding with a hunter specced MM (in his armory he's currently survival). Second, Daorc's shot breakdown is really screwy on the Najentus kill, I don't have any idea what rotation he's using but it doesn't look right. Third, I'm looking at your shot rotation and I'm not entirely clear on what you were doing either. You seem to have been doing a 1:1.5 style rotation but you have only about half as many autoshots as Daorc. Even though a survival hunter shoots much slower than BM, I would still think you wouldn't be that much lower. So I'm not sure what's wrong there but something seems to be.

Looking at your gear btw, you should really get a crit scope on that gun (S3 helm wouldn't hurt either). AP is better than +stats on bracers too. Your spec also looks a little weird to me, 25 points in marks without barrage or IAS seems nice for mana but you probably are giving up some potential damage, and I see you guys are getting judgement of wisdom and I didn't see you pop any pots on Najentus so I'm guessing you can afford to give up some of the mana regen for a more damage oriented spec and use pots more if need be.

Serf · 07/30/08, 3:44 AM

I don't pop mana pots because I never leave Viper. I've found that the 155 AP it gives isn't worth the lost of the longevity having Viper on from the start gives me. Even at the low end it's still recovering a very nice portion of mana every tick.

As for the crit scope: With a base 34.24% crit rate, I'm pretty sure that a little more crit won't help me as much as a damage scope, or am I misinterpreting the effect of damage scopes as increasing the weapon damage ratio (177-329 going to 187-339) when it is something else altogether?

As for Assault to bracers, yeah, I know that it gives a higher benefit than stats, but I'm an agility whore. >.>; The extra stamina helps a little when it comes to raid-wide damage (I'm very barely over the minimum health cap for naj unbuffed) and since Lightning Reflexes adds all your agility together before multiplying it, it seems to givea better bonus than most calculators I've seen give it credit for, though it is still DPS-wise inferior to Assault, of course.

As for the 25 points into Marks it's for the efficiency and for the Imp. Hunter's Mark; i'm sacrificing the bonii of IAS and barrage for even more raid utility. I also refuse to chain chug pots because I feel that that method is a format of exploiting something they didn't want, which it seems is apparent with what has been revealed to us about WotLK. It always seemed like a bit of a cop out. (personal opinion, I know it ends up making me worse for DPS. i appreciate the pointer though.)

For the half as many auto shots on my part, he has 1.9 un-modified haste for his autoshots. I have 2.52. I also tend to lead with arcane or multi, and the mobs don`t last all that long, heh- at least that`s what it seems to be to me. I`m not really sure as to what`s up with it for sure myself. I use a steady/auto macro with hand-weaved arcane and multis, using the castsequence macro I posted in a previous post.

germanboy3383 · 07/30/08, 4:42 AM

Why is Daoc the BM hunter using AS and MS? And why does he use a Thundering Skyfire Diamond for his meta gem?
Also, just because there was a nerf to potions in the WotLK beta does not mean that you are 'exploiting' anything in TBC. If you follow through with that kind of logic then you should stop