QuiggyB

General comment about using any mob to do comparative dps tests when the mechanic is shot rotation or weapon speed (anything that ultimately alters the mix of shots fired). Use recount and just record the number of shots fired in the same time period. Assign a static value for dmg for each shot type. You can get this off of a WWS. Relative DPS then becomes simple math. You dont need to do a ton of trials to eliminate variability in crit rates or dice rolls. For the multi-shot problem just divide the number recount shows by 3 - i.e. if it says 21 multis you hit boom 7 times. Here is a link to a post I made in this thread back in January 08 that does just this: linky <-- look at the method, not the conclusions as things have changed several times over.

As always, if you want an easy place to do testing that includes your pet (perhaps to test the impact of placing KC in your macro) there is the blasted lands guys or the ghosts in DM North up in the kings room. They never die, never attack and record dmg like a regular mob. You can also take a weapon you want to train skill in up there, hit auto attack and go do something. Because you are in combat it wont log you off.

edit: Dont forget to compute relative mana costs as well. Arcane is 2x and multi is 2.5x more than steady. People frequently get excited when they figure out ways to eek out 40 more dps while ignoring the fact that they increased mana consumption by 40% doing so.

 

Blaize

With Blizzard announcing that they will release WotLK talents before the actual expansion, has anyone been running any DPS numbers for a level 70 build?

This is the Talent Calculator I have been experimenting with;

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator

There are some interesting choices for PvE Survival. I for one am debating the worth of talents like "Hunting Party" and "Sniper Training" because of the sacrifices that would have to be made in the other trees. The possible loss of talents like "Improved Aspect of the Hawk" or "Mortal Shots".

 

Cathzilla

The build didn't get properly linked

I was considering somthing like THIS.

 

Blaize

I was considering this type of build:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator

 

Cathzilla

I dunno about the pushback talent I would much rather have the crit or %crit modifier

 

LuringShadow

I'd definitely take Mortal Shots. Here is the build I'm thinking of (keeping in mind that I have to take imp mark for the raid). Also, we usually have a couple shadow priests so the mana regen isn't a huge issue.

 

Blaize

The debate for me is Mortal Shots, I would love to see how much DPS it is actually worth. Master Tactician is still kind of underwhelming to me, and I don't see much sense in going too deep into Survival and not getting Hunting Party. The new Careful Aim looks very good, 100% attack power from int is about 300 ap raid buffed. I personally have been wishing for a pushback talent for a long time. Essentially every boss in Sunwell has some kind of AoE and the loss in dps due to pushback is reasonable.

 

LuringShadow

Somehow I missed that Careful Aim gives 100% now, good catch. Taking that into consideration I have revised my spec. Assuming that we keep bringing all the shadow priests we usually do and I don't need Hunting Party I'd go with this. That would give me the most amount of haste procs since I still don't have my DST. If the raid decided that they did want the mana return, I suppose I'd go with something like this. Looks like we'll have to do some testing in the PTR coming up to test out Careful Aim vs. Mortal Shots to get a better picture of which has more benifit.

 

Kimie

At the risk of repeating info, here's my experiences as Surv hunter, and adjusting macros to work with the spec.

The guild is working towards KJ in Sunwell, Surv was seen as the bitch spec no one wanted to take. But to maximise for the DPS race on KJ, several of us have taken buff specs in order to win. This includes a BF warrior and imp EA Rogue. I'm at the level where 2:1/3:2/1:1 works the best, so I use the Manito 2-part macro. I have around 150ms-250ms latency during prime time and run about 5% haste with a 3.00 sec bow.

The biggest difference I've found with going from BM to surv, is the problem of chaining steadies, which others have reiterated on this thread. The two biggest causes are where KC locks up autos, and boss fights which have some element of pushback. For the most part, the KC issue has been resolved by simply making sure that your KC line in the macro is between the "/cast !autoshot" and "/cast Steady Shot" lines. This has solved that problem for me completely. As for pushback, there really is no way around it other than being aware of where you are in your rotation and letting off the spam until your auto fires off.

Hope this helps those in high end content.

 

Kekegome

Easy question, is there any way to tell how often EW procs? I've been looking at recount and WWS and don't see a debuff uptime, only a DOT uptime, and seeing as EW is not a DOT.... doesn't show up.

Anyone find a way to figure it out other than guessing?

 

Rivkah

Just an FYI for those who haven't read the news yet, it seems in the expansion expose weakness will be a self buff only. Guess we'll have to see if the damage buffs and hunting party will keep survival viable. The wording of the announcement with regards to raid regen talents like hunting party is also confusing, I wonder if they are going to keep in the energy/rage/runic regen.

 

• Crowbite

They specially mention that the listed talents are going to be changed to match the post. The energy/rage buff is going to be gone.

 

LuringShadow

Hunting Party will also only affect the 10 lowest (same as VT). I can't believe this is happening. I have been survival for a long time and I never wanted to go back. Looks like our days are numbered. I suppose I'll have to go farm up some badges for the xbow now. This is very dissapointing.

Here's the post for those who haven't seen it yet: WoW Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

 

Gorestain

For WotLK, I was thinking this build would be best for maximising personal DPS along with keeping EW up at all times.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator

I find that IAotH is rather invaluable to my own personal DPS. I was 0/27/34 before I went into SWP and my DPS was below 1400. After I respected and did some testing, I found my dps was alittle higher, sitting around 1600+. I couldn't find any link to any of my more recent raids WWS to show the differences.

 

Serf

3/3 focussed aim? Why? Sure, steady shot is a big part of our DPS, but with the unlinking going on of steady and auto, it's not SUCH a huge thing. 5/5 lethal shots and mortal shots is a requirement for any hunter, because 5% passive crit and 30% added crit damage are worth more than basically any other talent you could put the points into.

Lock and Load has been proven to be a good talent even if you never trap anything, and even with 'just' arcane shot, getting three AS in three GCDs for free is an impressive amount of damage, considering that serpent sting will actually be viable damage with it's increased scalar.

Sniper Training has also been proven to be not worth the points due to buff range problems as well as simpler problems such as merely maintaining a constant 30 yards from the boss- considering some bosses such as Supremus, being exactly 30 yards away or more but still within 41 yards can be a downright impossibility some times.

And with the autoshot delinking, IAotH becomes less important, meaning that it can be removed to make room for more important talents, even if you miss out on (what I see as important) Explosive Shot and TNT- but they can be picked up come WotLK and more levelling.

Something like this Marksmanship 13 / Survival 48 build.

 

Filena

Does anyone think the change to Master Tactican will make this skill worthwhile to have?

Essentially they changed it so now it has a 10% chance (up from 6%) to proc. Thoughts?

 

Gearknight

Yes, Master Tactician is now better than Lethal Shots. All 40+ survival hunters should have it.

 

Filena

Hey all,

So I am tweaking my talents again (took off for about a year) and I need some help. I can't seem to decide where to put this last point into the MM tree and I am hoping to get some feedback.

Basically I am looking to do a 0/28/33 build. Currently The problem is for me to get RWS I need to spend one more additional point somewhere in the tree. Right now its between IAS or Improved Stings. I currently use a 1:1.5 shot rotation.

My armory link:
The World of Warcraft Armory

This is the build I am looking at:
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Hunter -> Talent Calculator



My last question is regarding my pet. Primarily I use a cat, and recently I picked up a Wind Serpent. I decided to give them another go now that my crit rate is above 35%. I have read a lot of contradictory opinions on when a WS becomes more viable then a cat. Some say over 30% crit, others said 35%. I did some searches on here for some more solid opinions but didn't see anything helpful.

Is my WS going to do more dmg then my cat given I have 35% crit to feed it focus?

Any other thoughts would also be helpful. Thanks in advance.

 

Rivkah

The reason for the different numbers for windserpent is that BM hunters have a focus talent in their tree as well, so they need less crit to make a windserpent outdamage another pet because they're getting additional focus from the other talent. For survival hunters 35% is generally recommended, for BM it's 30%. A windserpent should be better for you assuming your raid doesn't run with an elemental shaman.

Just a minor gem suggestion- rather than going for the 8 crit gem in the ranger-general you could have put in a crit/stam gem and convert the agil/stam gem you have in your shoulders to straight agil.

In regards to the spec, does someone else in your raid have imp hunter's mark? If not you may want to consider getting it and putting your extra point in efficiency instead (although it will definitely hurt your mana supply). Otherwise what you have is probably fine.

 

Filena

Funny you said that. Today I am switching some gems around.

I am doing a +5agi/7sta ... +10agi ... +10 crit rate to the chest so I can add another +8 agi to the shoulder =)

Yes, our BM hunters take care of the Improved Hunters mark so that isn't a concern.

Also, it seems that the issue with WS moving back to cast LB has been fixed. At least from what it appears to me. Do I even need to use the cast LB macro anymore?

 

Windarrow

Since we're also talking about upcoming patches, Changes in upcoming patches?

Expose weakness buffs only self. Survival hunter gg? LoL.

 

TrexlerRanger

Just a heads up if you're going to be making new builds for when the talents are released you'll want to shy away from the 'official' talent calc because it is not the most updated. I believe that mmo-champ and wowhead have the most up to date versions. One major thing to keep in mind is that improved hawk no longer buffs the raid; it is now just a buff to ranged AP at 10/20/30 intervals for 3 points ( as well as the dispel resistance).

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

Something similar to this is what I'm thinking of using, I'm kind of at a loss in regards to maxing out MT and a couple other things. would really need to get on PTR and test this out. I'm also seriously bummed about the change to hunting party making us just another mana battery.

EDIT: At this point, not sure about the investment of points into the new self-buff only EW, so might need to rethink this whole thing.

 

Jamuka

I'm looking at something like this at 70:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

And this at 80:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

The buff that EW gives is still most likely a bigger buff than 3/3 Hunter Vs. Wild. However, the fact that it is only a group buff now makes it even less mandatory to have 3 points in it, with 2 points it would be up almost all the time, the final point can be better spent elsewhere.

 

Serf

Taking a look at MMO-Champion's talent calculato, has anyone nopticed just how GOOD they've made Survival tactics? for two points, you get 4% less resist on FD, 4% less resists on traps, and 4 seconds off the disengage cooldown, which is looking fast to become our bread and butter. I'm even *le gasp!* considering getting resourcefulness for the trap cooldown reduction... but I doubt it. It just doesn't hold enough to warrant spending the points on it.

Something like this build here:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunt...00000000000000

 

Crydak