SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1 - Page 12

Acedude · 08/14/07, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Muzelf

In the fight, I find myself very busy through the different phases. manually timing my shots is a whole lot more to think about. Therefore I feel a shot rotation macro is the way to go. As fights from now on will surely become more involved, how can you overlook a shot macro without damaging your raid performance. Discuss.

What I found comfortable doing is make a steady/auto shot macro, spam it, and manually fit in arcane/multi/KC. i usually raid with around 200ms ping, so depend on what's not on cooldown and how much time i have left before my next auto fires off, I squeeze in the most appropriate ability. As you get used to a good rotation, you can just glance at your autoshot castbar and automatic know what to use w/o need to think about it.

Also, directly comparing to the only WWS I have for Kael (WWS), you should be using more steady shots.

zork · 08/15/07, 7:49 AM

As SV I am using this macro:

/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command;
/castsequence Steady Shot, Auto Shot;
/castrandom Arcane Shot;

Multi Shot will be triggered manually.
Big plus is that you do not have to care about your bow speed.

I know about the auto shot delay but just give it a try it works out really well. Ravager should be the pet of your choice imo.

Niouk · 08/15/07, 12:38 PM

hey, havent read the entire post but got a question for u theorycraft-lovers !

how much crit % should a surv hunter aim for ?
i read somewhere than with 40% crit, raid buffed, attack power gives better results, what do u think about it ?

(atm i can reach 40% crit with ap trinkets, but dont know if i should stay with my crit' ones)

sorry for bad english

◊ vank · 08/15/07, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Niouk

hey, havent read the entire post but got a question for u theorycraft-lovers !

how much crit % should a surv hunter aim for ?
i read somewhere than with 40% crit, raid buffed, attack power gives better results, what do u think about it ?

(atm i can reach 40% crit with ap trinkets, but dont know if i should stay with my crit' ones)

sorry for bad english

There is a thread called [Hunter] Help Me Please. Why don't you ask in there.

Niouk · 08/15/07, 2:05 PM

Because there is a thread called [Hunter] SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1. And it's a question about SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1.

Anthalis · 08/15/07, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by zork

As SV I am using this macro:

/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command;
/castsequence Steady Shot, Auto Shot;
/castrandom Arcane Shot;

Multi Shot will be triggered manually.
Big plus is that you do not have to care about your bow speed.

I know about the auto shot delay but just give it a try it works out really well. Ravager should be the pet of your choice imo.

I'm trying to put together a better shot rotation macro than what I am currently using. Has anyone else used this one successfully?

Kaber · 08/15/07, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Niouk

Because there is a thread called [Hunter] SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1. And it's a question about SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1.

No, you're right. This thread is the place to ask about crit rates for Survival. I dont know personally, but I understand from numerous sources that diminishing returns start kicking in beyond 30% crit. I can't explain why my WWS crit rate is always 2% under my paper doll crit rate of 32%. When I first heard about it was on the WWS of a survival hunter, someone with 40% crit only had a 35% crit rate through an entire raid night and he said it was completely common-place to see 3-5% less crit than listed as crit got higher.

I'd say there are definate draw-backs to trying to stack too much crit, and personally I think 35% pre-raid buffs is about right. No math to back it up, just a gut feeling and some experience with diminishing returns on crit. Maybe a mathmagician can work that one out for you.

Howitzer · 08/15/07, 4:22 PM

Originally Posted by Niouk

how much crit % should a surv hunter aim for ?
i read somewhere than with 40% crit, raid buffed, attack power gives better results, what do u think about it ?

(atm i can reach 40% crit with ap trinkets, but dont know if i should stay with my crit' ones)

sorry for bad english

I tend to believe that while crit scales very well up to about 45%, anything past that point has deminishing returns. Even 40% crit is enough in my opinion. Once you get to that point you should start focusing on RAP. Its basically a balancing act no matter which tree you spec into. Survival hunters usually just stack the hell out of agility and focus on their EW proc's strength knowing that their DPS never is going to be greater than full-marks or full-BM spec.

Barbon · 08/15/07, 4:24 PM

As far as I know, the reason you have 2-3% crit less in damage meters than your char sheet says is not cause you have too much of it, but instead because the boss is 3 levels higher than you.

Cheeky · 08/15/07, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Barbon

As far as I know, the reason you have 2-3% crit less in damage meters than your char sheet says is not cause you have too much of it, but instead because the boss is 3 levels higher than you.

That should be only a 0.6% difference, unless the mechanics changed in 2.0 (which I would believe).

I have had nights were my crit rate was 7-8% higher than expected, times it has been 7-8% lower, but generally it is within 0.5% of what it should be.

Groggan · 08/15/07, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by Howitzer

I tend to believe that while crit scales very well up to about 45%, anything past that point has deminishing returns. Even 40% crit is enough in my opinion. Once you get to that point you should start focusing on RAP. Its basically a balancing act no matter which tree you spec into. Survival hunters usually just stack the hell out of agility and focus on their EW proc's strength knowing that their DPS never is going to be greater than full-marks or full-BM spec.

There is no "diminishing returns" on crit, rap, or any other stat. You can't get so much that getting more won't increase your DPS. And, furthermore, there is no magic RAP value where crit is suddenly all you should strive for. Nor is there some magic crit value when RAP is all you should strive for. (There very like is some DPS value where one will always be better than the other, but I haven't taken the time to find it since for myself as a SV hunter agi is always going to be better than both thanks to LR and BoK scaling it.)

The value of crit, and of rap (and thus of agi) varies based on your weapon damage, weapon speed, RAP, crit, hit, and shot cycle. All 6 of these elements have to be considered when trying to decide if X crit rating is better than Y rap or Z agi at any given time. For that matter, all these questions of "how much crit is too much" or "how much rap is too much" are moot when you actually look at in-game itemization. The only part of the game where a hunter should ask themselves the question of "do I want crit, ap, or agi" is in gem selection. All other item choices are much more complicated and if it is really a question of it being an upgrade should just be switched out in the spreadsheet to see the result to DPS.

For those of you wanting to find which gem selections to make, you can use this spreadsheet to find the incremental differences made by crit/rap/agi under various circumstances based on your current pertinent stats. Fill out the yellow fields, look at the changes in shot damage, and use those to decide what to do (if all shots increase in damage more for one stat then that is your best choice). I'll tell you now though, for SV and BM agi is going to win out the vast majority of the time, especially if you assume the presence of BoK.

Sorry if I sound snide, I'm just tired of people tossing around mis-information with regard to "diminishing returns" for crit, rap, and agi.

Harwin · 08/15/07, 7:20 PM

Originally Posted by Groggan

There is no "diminishing returns" on crit, rap, or any other stat. You can't get so much that getting more won't increase your DPS. And, furthermore, there is no magic RAP value where crit is suddenly all you should strive for. Nor is there some magic crit value when RAP is all you should strive for.

...

Sorry if I sound snide, I'm just tired of people tossing around mis-information with regard to "diminishing returns" for crit, rap, and agi.

Diminishing returns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you have 0 crit, and 5/5 mortal shots and 100% hit rate, the first point of crit will increase your DPS by 1.3%. The second point increases it ~1.28%, thus a "diminished" return from the first one. As Crit rises relative to RAP (or vice versa), it becomes less valuable RELATIVE to RAP(and thus diminishing relative returns).

And if you've got on-crit procs like the Hourglass of the Unraveller, it actually can add less total damage per point due to hidden cooldowns on that proc, independent of RAP. You also aren't getting much more Expose Weakness up-time(those first 40% crit give you something like 90% uptime. The next 40 points add < 10% uptime) or more useful go for the throat focus, etc

So yes, the more crit you have, the less useful each additional point of crit is. It's never *bad* for you, but it certainly was less useful for you than the previous point of crit.

Howitzer · 08/15/07, 7:44 PM

Originally Posted by Groggan

There is no "diminishing returns" on crit, rap, or any other stat. You can't get so much that getting more won't increase your DPS. And, furthermore, there is no magic RAP value where crit is suddenly all you should strive for.

Sorry if I sound snide, I'm just tired of people tossing around mis-information with regard to "diminishing returns" for crit, rap, and agi.

You don't sound snide, its your own opinion and thats fine. But your opinion isn't fact. To me, I don't think if I have 50% crit and 2000 RAP, that I would keep trying to boost my crit. It is a simple waste to keep boosting crit at that point. I would much rather boost my raw damage. Like I said, its a balancing act with whatever spec you are. So in that regard, its a diminishing return on investment.

If you don't believe me, Groggan, thats fine, but in practice, I've proved the point to myself with my own WWS results.

Groggan · 08/15/07, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by Harwin

Diminishing returns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you have 0 crit, and 5/5 mortal shots and 100% hit rate, the first point of crit will increase your DPS by 1.3%. The second point increases it ~1.28%, thus a "diminished" return from the first one. As Crit rises relative to RAP (or vice versa), it becomes less valuable RELATIVE to RAP(and thus diminishing relative returns).

And if you've got on-crit procs like the Hourglass of the Unraveller, it actually can add less total damage per point due to hidden cooldowns on that proc, independent of RAP. You also aren't getting much more Expose Weakness up-time(those first 40% crit give you something like 90% uptime. The next 40 points add < 10% uptime) or more useful go for the throat focus, etc

So yes, the more crit you have, the less useful each additional point of crit is. It's never *bad* for you, but it certainly was less useful for you than the previous point of crit.

By that definition everything has diminishing returns. And again, crit value is not based solely on RAP, it is based on weapon damage, weapon speed, haste effects, hit, rap, and even crit itself. If you change your weapon the valuation of both crit and rap will change.

*shrug* Math is good enough for me when it comes to seeing if incremental ap, crit, or agi are more valuable at any given time than general theories.

And, as I said, the whole argument is a non-issue when you ground yourself in in-game itemization. Show me an item selection choice where you honestly are choosing between increasing your crit by X or using another item and increasing your rap by Y. Itemization choices are much too complex to paint in black and white terms of "get the crit item" or "get the rap item". The only realm that these choices are an issue is gem selection, and it has been shown rather solidly (particularly with BoK) that agi is king of gems (if you are ignoring socket bonuses, if not then some of the ap/crit gems would probably be more useful than the agi/whatever gems for non SV hunters). Either way, the tools are there to get real valuations for gem selections.

Acedude · 08/15/07, 8:52 PM

Originally Posted by Groggan

By that definition everything has diminishing returns. And again, crit value is not based solely on RAP, it is based on weapon damage, weapon speed, haste effects, hit, rap, and even crit itself. If you change your weapon the valuation of both crit and rap will change.

*shrug* Math is good enough for me when it comes to seeing if incremental ap, crit, or agi are more valuable at any given time than general theories.

And, as I said, the whole argument is a non-issue when you ground yourself in in-game itemization. Show me an item selection choice where you honestly are choosing between increasing your crit by X or using another item and increasing your rap by Y. Itemization choices are much too complex to paint in black and white terms of "get the crit item" or "get the rap item". The only realm that these choices are an issue is gem selection, and it has been shown rather solidly (particularly with BoK) that agi is king of gems (if you are ignoring socket bonuses, if not then some of the ap/crit gems would probably be more useful than the agi/whatever gems for non SV hunters). Either way, the tools are there to get real valuations for gem selections.

By diminished returns, it means that as either your crit or ap gets significantly higher than the other, say 3k ranged AP and 20% crit, AP would not scale as well as crit if you had the choice (like gem selection). Vise versa is true if you are at 35% crit and 1700 AP, where then you would want to focus more on raising AP. The key concept here is balance, which is why stacking agility is better than AP or crit gems in almost (keyword, almost) all cases regardless of if you're wearing all greens/blues or stacked in tier 6 gear.

• Glaurong · 08/15/07, 9:13 PM

It is a issue of semantics but I don't think diminishing returns is an accurate description either.

At any given time, given your spec and current gear, a relative weighting of stats is only valid for that snapshot of your character.

If I sat down and crunched the numbers for my character right now I might come up with 2 Agi = 4 AP = 2.2 HR = 2.1 CR. However those numbers are only valid while my stats and spec remain constant. If I treated these like absolutes and stacked the hell out of CR these relative weights change and might be 2 Agi = 4 AP = 2.2 HR = 1.5 CR. Now my gear is out of whack, I've treated a snapshot of my character like it was true for any spec/gearing.

This is what people mean when they say gear selection is a balancing act and there isn't one solution across all levels of gear, even within the same spec.

All of the numbers I used were purely for illustrations sake and should not be treated as anything but made up crap

Edit: what I was really trying to say is let the whole diminishing returns thing go!

Jemsky · 08/16/07, 7:30 AM

Ok, having read through all the pages and attempting to oblige Glaurong, may I pose a question?

As a SV hybrid spec ( and i love it) I am trying to decide what to do for my raiding guild. I went the sacrifice route and basically damaged my DPS by getting improved Hunters mark and exposed weakness.

My mana regen is awful cause I need Scatter shot to get myself out of bad situations and Its rare I will get any SP love or Shaman love in 25 mans.

So one says chug posts, make sure rotation is good so on and so forth, which I do..I still manage to get in top 3-5 but am struggling against rogues and locks and one SP

So I have designed this somewhat selfish, personal DPS boost spec but still keeping EW
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Shall I go for this?

Clipping my shots will not happen as I have a AS timer and I watch my rotations with an eagle eye ( well very occasionally it happens

)

so I made another spec which still benefits the raids etc but once again severe mana problems on long fights, issues with no healing for my pet and so on

The Armory

Thats my current spec...

So wondering if combining the haste rating from the trophy trinket and IAOTH and if i put points in mana efficiency and sacrifice scatter shot (cry) , will it be better since raid buffed i can rwach 37-38% and 42% with LOTP and I can have EW a lot and I wont go OOM?

rudedog · 08/16/07, 9:16 AM

Have you made it clear to your guild you have gimped your mana in order to buff the melee dps? If I was going to swap efficiency for imp hunters mark I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask to be grouped with a shadow priest to make up for the mana loss.

What does your normal shadow priest group look like?

Also, your proposed build isn't that selfish as your are still giving the raids physical dps a pretty good AP buff from EW

Jemsky · 08/16/07, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by rudedog

Have you made it clear to your guild you have gimped your mana in order to buff the melee dps? If I was going to swap efficiency for imp hunters mark I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask to be grouped with a shadow priest to make up for the mana loss.

What does your normal shadow priest group look like?

Also, your proposed build isn't that selfish as your are still giving the raids physical dps a pretty good AP buff from EW

Well, we have one shadow priest and two shamans as we had our top two SP's leave us for a better guild and that was painful to say the least

I have been gently explaining hunter mechanics to my offficers and tried to show them how much more efficient i can be when allowed a SP

However, the healers and melee DPS need the Shamans more and the healers/casters want the SP. Being the only hunter now in the guild I feel a bit concious all the time and I get really stressed about improving my DPS. I have to focus so hard to ensure everything is just right.

On another note, when I went the MT route my Crit jumped to 51% ( i kid you not) with raid buffs and LOTP , DPS was grand but oh boy when up close and personal in instances I really missed scatter.Now, I read this bit in the thread that more crit is not necessarily better which has me a bit worried. Did that high crit rating not count?

Any clues on what is the cap on crit then? What is the ideal balance then for Crit/AP . Is there a ratio which one can aim for?

Acedude · 08/16/07, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Jemsky

Well, we have one shadow priest and two shamans as we had our top two SP's leave us for a better guild and that was painful to say the least

I have been gently explaining hunter mechanics to my offficers and tried to show them how much more efficient i can be when allowed a SP

However, the healers and melee DPS need the Shamans more and the healers/casters want the SP. Being the only hunter now in the guild I feel a bit concious all the time and I get really stressed about improving my DPS. I have to focus so hard to ensure everything is just right.

On another note, when I went the MT route my Crit jumped to 51% ( i kid you not) with raid buffs and LOTP , DPS was grand but oh boy when up close and personal in instances I really missed scatter.Now, I read this bit in the thread that more crit is not necessarily better which has me a bit worried. Did that high crit rating not count?

Any clues on what is the cap on crit then? What is the ideal balance then for Crit/AP . Is there a ratio which one can aim for?

Personally as survival, I would root against anything with +haste proc. I'm sure it's possible to manage it if you have great latency and a fast reaction time, but more often than not, unexpected haste effects mess up your shot rotation.

I'm also in the same position where I'm usually thrown in the paladin/warlock groups instead of shaman/feral druid/spriest. While mana is a problem for us, other classes *might* be able to make better use out of shaman/SP than us. The melee group definitely needs windfury, and my raid group has a few arcane mages that can dump all the mana from shadow priests faster than I could. Mana problem can be mostly countered with chain chugging mana pots, but I'm bitter that I don't get GoA/LotP though =(

Again, there is no "cap" on crit, only reduced effectiveness of it if you neglect AP. The question to ask yourself is, do you have quality alternative gears that can boost your AP without sacrificing too much crit? If not, start collecting items that's end up giving you more AP than crit and slowly make the transition. In my opinion, I'd think 2k RAP and 35% crit is a rough example of balanced ratio for survival.

You won't be beating many rogues on the meters. After all, you're buffing them with some 350-400 AP =) To sum up survival raiding in my own words, I'd say one should focus on maximize the AP buff to the raid while remaining competitive in damage.

rudedog · 08/16/07, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Jemsky

Well, we have one shadow priest and two shamans as we had our top two SP's leave us for a better guild and that was painful to say the least

I have been gently explaining hunter mechanics to my offficers and tried to show them how much more efficient i can be when allowed a SP

However, the healers and melee DPS need the Shamans more and the healers/casters want the SP. Being the only hunter now in the guild I feel a bit concious all the time and I get really stressed about improving my DPS. I have to focus so hard to ensure everything is just right.

On another note, when I went the MT route my Crit jumped to 51% ( i kid you not) with raid buffs and LOTP , DPS was grand but oh boy when up close and personal in instances I really missed scatter.Now, I read this bit in the thread that more crit is not necessarily better which has me a bit worried. Did that high crit rating not count?

Any clues on what is the cap on crit then? What is the ideal balance then for Crit/AP . Is there a ratio which one can aim for?

Lol - just realised we are on the same server

I think the point about crit is that unless you keep it somewhat balanced with AP its worth can be lessened. If you stack lots of crit at the expense of AP, each % crit gained will suffer from an ammount of diminishing returns. The exact same can be said for stacking AP at the expense of crit though. Personaly, I don't believe there is such a thing as a crit cap as long as you keep it balanced with AP increases.

I would like to think that there is some optimum AP to Crit ratio (gear aside) but so far I haven't seen anyone have a stab at working out what it might be. The only thing I can suggest is trying different builds and gear/gem combinations in Cheeky's spreadsheet and seeing what is optimum for you.