SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1 - Page 15

Trohck · 09/23/07, 3:32 PM

Originally Posted by Dreamflow

I was wondering how good would 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot be? since 5 sec CD in a 1:1.5 rotation it would match it perfectly. Anyone has done some testing or something?

It's only truly useful when you can't use Multi Shot, which is typically on trash. For a Survival spec I think you can find a much better place to put those points.

QuiggyB · 09/23/07, 11:56 PM

For SV 5/5 Imp Arcane means saccing one of several big dps boosts

Thalestris · 09/24/07, 6:13 AM

Originally Posted by QuiggyB

For SV 5/5 Imp Arcane means saccing one of several big dps boosts

Could you be more precise please ?

I have 5/5 imp. arcane shot for some time now, and I like it.

With this talent, I can shot an arcane every two autoshots (instead of 3), it's a great dps boost.

My shot rotation:

Auto
- steady, arcane
Auto
- steady (or multi-shot if avaible)
Auto
- steady, arcane

and so on ...

I still use multishot. Most players seems to use multi after a steady shot. I perfer to replace the steady shot in the middle of my rotation by a multi, to avoid delaying the next auto.

Link to my current spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I suppose my current spec is ok, and the only talent I really miss is rapid killing. But my overall dps, and my ability to do burst damage has improved a bit, while TotH help with the insane mana consumption.

Before that I was using this spec : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

My only concern is scalability. Arcane shot gets only 15% of ap, while all other shots get 20%. In the long run maybe it's not a viable option (my guild is working on Kael atm).

Cheeky · 09/24/07, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Thalestris

My only concern is scalability. Arcane shot gets only 15% of ap, while all other shots get 20%. In the long run maybe it's not a viable option (my guild is working on Kael atm).

Most mobs have at least 25% armor reduction, so your Arcane might be scaling better (not counting resists.)

Thalestris · 09/24/07, 12:33 PM

That's right, but Arcane shot can be partially resisted, like a spell.

I'm not sure how it works exactly, it seems to be related to the hit rating but I couldn't find exact numbers.

Also the extra damage from curse of shadow is great, as Arcane Shot is big part of my damage, it's a nice dps boost.

• Glaurong · 09/24/07, 5:11 PM

Originally Posted by Thalestris

That's right, but Arcane shot can be partially resisted, like a spell.

I'm not sure how it works exactly, it seems to be related to the hit rating but I couldn't find exact numbers.

Also the extra damage from curse of shadow is great, as Arcane Shot is big part of my damage, it's a nice dps boost.

~5% of your Arcane shot damage will be resisted by bosses due to their 24 resist to all schools that cannot be overcome in any way.

QuiggyB · 09/24/07, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Thalestris

Could you be more precise please ?

I have 5/5 imp. arcane shot for some time now, and I like it.

With this talent, I can shot an arcane every two autoshots (instead of 3), it's a great dps boost.

My shot rotation:

Auto
- steady, arcane
Auto
- steady (or multi-shot if avaible)
Auto
- steady, arcane

and so on ...

I still use multishot. Most players seems to use multi after a steady shot. I perfer to replace the steady shot in the middle of my rotation by a multi, to avoid delaying the next auto.

Link to my current spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I suppose my current spec is ok, and the only talent I really miss is rapid killing. But my overall dps, and my ability to do burst damage has improved a bit, while TotH help with the insane mana consumption.

Before that I was using this spec : Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

My only concern is scalability. Arcane shot gets only 15% of ap, while all other shots get 20%. In the long run maybe it's not a viable option (my guild is working on Kael atm).

Im missing how this is a dps boost over a normal rotation like this with Master Tact spec'd:

Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Multi-Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot

Doing that rotation I get 1000dps on Dr Boom in similar gear. Putting into Cheeky's sheet I get a 44 dps drop too. Am I missing something?

Something else to consider, you cant stick in a multi in the sequence right after an arcane without really getting screwed by the GCD. Auto, Steady, Arcane, Auto, Multi doesnt work.

AndrewCarr · 09/24/07, 5:41 PM

Thalestris, going over builds real quick it looks like 5/5 imp. arcane shot will mostly affect the end of the survival tree. Assuming you go for barrage, SS, and GftT still, you'll no longer be able to max out TotH, so something like 2/3 TotH and 2/3 EW seems possible, with little dps loss. Also, if you normally went for RWS over TotH, then you wouldn't be able to put as many points into that.
So overall it looks like you're going to take a small dps hit in a couple places, but if you're really noticing a large benefit to your shot rotation by the lowered cd, it wouldn't be anything I would fret about.

Thalestris · 09/25/07, 6:58 AM

Thanks for your answers

Actually I made this build to try to make the most out the talon of Al'ar. But it's still very bad even if the buff if up 100% of the time.

On the other hand, all my GCDs are fully used and there is no 'dead space' in my rotation. If I don't mess up I'm always under the GCD. There is no wasted time between shots, and I don't delay autoshots much. That's why I like it ... it 'fits' well to the hunter mecanisms.

Auto/steady/arcane/auto/multi/auto is a valid sequence of shots.
Even with 200ms ping, it won't delay any of the autoshots. If you replace multi by steady, the last autoshot will be delayed a bit. That's why I use this sequence when multi is not on cooldown.

I don't have WWS reports to show tho. I see bigger dps numbers on recount (I hit 950 dps on Lurker for the first time during our last SSC clean). It could de bue to my recent gear upgrades, hard to tell.

When I switched to 5/5 Impr. Arcane, I expected to see a dps drop, but it's not the case.
I think it happens mostly because I use more damaging shots in the same span of time. That means more mana used as well, but with TotH 3/3 and my high crit rate (a little less than 39% with only elixirs and blessings, 44% with feral aura) I use less mana pots than before for a overall better dps output. I didn't have TotH in my last build (I went for barrage and RWS 3/3) and it makes a huge difference.

I don't claim 5/5 ias is better than anything else. But it seems to be a very viable option in raids, while many players consider Impr. Arcane as a "pvp only" talent.

Tap · 09/25/07, 9:28 AM

Hi guys,

I'm looking for some experienced eyes to analyze our WWS for some recent runs, as well as my armory profile for any advice that can help up my personal DPS.

I first started raiding survival with a 0/24/37 (3/3 ToTT and EW along with 3/3 Imp Barrage + Scatter Shot), however quickly switched to my current spec, with the idea that using Readiness during trash mobs allows for 2x Rapid Fire (on average, it'll take 2-3 minutes between our trash mob clears, so I can almost always have a Abacus activation up as well as a Rapid Fire activation up during fights).

Current spec: The Armory

Important to note: I believe my base agility is 768 (off the top of my head), logged out with Mark of the Wild on.

WWS Logs:
Wow Web Stats - Fathom Lord Karathess kill and trash (I have more DPS this attempt due to having GoA totems and Leader of the Pack buff about 90% of the raid, though this has only happened once or twice ever in our raids).
Wow Web Stats - Morogrim Tidewalker kill and Al'ar attempts
Wow Web Stats - Morogrim Tidewalker kill and Fathom Lord Karathess attempts

I've noticed I've averaged around 680 - 690 DPS since I've switched to my current spec (about 3 weeks now) and I'm trying valiantly to push higher then that, without sacrificing too much of any other base stat, or my contributions to the raid in terms of Expose Weakness.

Some other info;

-I attempt to use a 1/1:5 rotation, alternating between Arcane and Multi Shot, though the majority of the time it is Arcane because Multi Shot is not a feasible choice (usually due to crowd controlled mobs). I say attempt because I know just from tendency, I have a bad habit to hit both special shots when they're up and when I can safely use both shots (such on boss fights).

-I use AoH 99% of the time on trash. Boss fights will have AoV up for almost all of the right, save the DPS zerg's and we need to squeeze out all DPS that we can (such as Morogrim's Grouble spam phase).

-The only macro I use is a vanilla steady shot/auto shot macro with a castsequence=3 modifier; everything else is manually weaved in.

-I very, very rarely have class party buffs in terms of FI, Leader of the Pack, Shaman totems, etc. Our usual raid schema has the Shaman with 3 Rogues and a DPS warrior, and the Hunters spread out across different parties. It is common to have a Shadow Priest in our group, though that luxury seems to dissipate during boss fights *lol*.

EDIT: I use a cat with Bite/Claw on auto use, and manually hit Kill Command when it's up and not on cooldown (probably important to mention that, I blame lack of coffee *lol*)

Any other information that is needed I'd be happy to give, and thanks for any insight or advice that can be offered about shot rotations, gear, gems, or enchantments that can help me boost my sustained raid DPS for 700+ on a regular basis.

Cheers

Phalloidin · 09/25/07, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

Hi guys.

Recently my guild has been struggling with DPS issues. I took a few WWS parses recently and spent a long time going through each player and suggesting improvements, weeding out bad specs and getting slackers to enchant their gear etc...

We've already seen a good improvement in DPS which is great but as you can probably guess by me posting in this thread, I'm having difficulties with a survivalist hunter.

Now I've got nothing against this spec, its just I've got no experience with it. I've read through this thread fully now but still have a few questions. The guy seems to know what hes doing but a few problems arose:

1) He has pretty low personal DPS. Now I know your spec isn't reknowned for its high personal DPS in favour of the raid buff but even with that considered this seems low (from the dps stats posted in this thread)

2) At least 2 pieces of his gear don't have any agility on at all (Prince ring + T4 shoulders). I put it to him that he'd be better off swapping the shoulders for your D3 shoulders with 2x+8 agi gems but he won't hear about going from epic to blue. Am I right or is it worth the shoulders even though they have no agility? To note would be he would lose the 4 T4 bonus if he dropped the shoulders.
Also tied in with this point is that I don't think he has enough agility to pull this spec off. Figures thrown about in this thread seem to indicate an 800 agi unbuffed as the required agi for this spec. Hes about 700.

3) He is adamant that Aimed shot is the best shot to restart his shot cycle after hes had to move (the fight was gruul so moving from shatter/cave in). Now this goes againt everything I've read on hunters in this thread and the BM thread and it would seem to me he could get an auto and steady in place of the aimed. Again, whats the general opinion on this?

His armoury:
The Armory

The WWS for him:
Plavalaguna - WWS

His stats (that he posted in our priv forum thread):

Thanks for any replies.

It sounds like the biggest source of his weak DPS is poor play style imo.

I am 2/20/39 survival and I do ~800 DPS personal + ~250 DPS scorpid on gruul with only shaman for buffs.

-forget aimed shot- if you want to push tank's threat while MDing use distracting shot IMO
-T4 shoulders are TERRIBLE for survival hunters, as is the set bonus- ondskaben analyzed the numbers- BL mantle is far superior in spite of the blue/purple thing. this is a major crux for pre-T5 hunters to get over imo... many purples are terribly itemized- especially for survival hunters. the S2 arena stuff is fabulous though, imo (pre T5).
-ring of 100 marks is quite good imo, in spite of the lack of agility, however pathfinder's band is definitely better (AH buy). TBH I itemize to maximize my personal DPS first, including EW AP bonus, and whatever agility I have to support EW for raid- great. so my agil is only 720 unbuffed, ~900 fully raid buffed. when my guild has a stronger cadre of physical dps, maybe i will increase weight of pure agility then =p.
-belt of black eagle is great imo. OK if you have another 1-2k gold to drop on belt of deep shadow, assuming it is available to you, great. but given the issue with T4 shoulders it seems the least of his itemization worries...
-enchants: +4 stas to bracers: NO! so, 1 AP to physical DPS is worth more than 25AP (including survival talent boost to AP) to himself? textbook survival error imo. same with nethercleft armor patch to leggings- 3AP for physical DPS in raid vs ~42 AP and 12 CR for himself (and pet)? no way... maybe if you run with 15 pro rogues...
-most importantly: 100 shots in 330 seconds?!?!? he should be aiming for more like 170 shots in the same period imo. also the special:auto shot ratio is a bit low, ~1.25 including aimed shots (>.<), should aim for closer to 1.4:1 imo (obviously 1.5 is ideal). DPS time is a tremendous area of potential for him.
-obviously pet- even for non-BM is a big source of DPS improvement with proper pet management- although I am going to miss my scorpid after the patch... =*(

good luck vaccine!

Cheeky · 09/25/07, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Phalloidin

-forget aimed shot- if you want to push tank's threat while MDing use distracting shot IMO

I would disagree with this part. If you are MDing for threat, you want to generate as much threat as possible in absolute numbers. Aimed Shot may be slow, but in a fight where your DPS classes are threat capped it will mean more raid DPS. (In fact, it's the only legitimate use of Aimed Shot in raids.)

Distracting shot, with a flat ~900ish threat is the one to drop. When you average in critical hits just about every other shot ability (Auto, Steady, Multi, Arcane) are going to generate more threat. Distracting is only really useful if you need instant threat (at a phase transition) and Arcane is on cool down.

Phalloidin · 09/25/07, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

I would disagree with this part. If you are MDing for threat, you want to generate as much threat as possible in absolute numbers. Aimed Shot may be slow, but in a fight where your DPS classes are threat capped it will mean more raid DPS. (In fact, it's the only legitimate use of Aimed Shot in raids.)

Distracting shot, with a flat ~900ish threat is the one to drop. When you average in critical hits just about every other shot ability (Auto, Steady, Multi, Arcane) are going to generate more threat. Distracting is only really useful if you need instant threat (at a phase transition) and Arcane is on cool down.

I didn't know that- thanks cheeky! =D

Ondskaben · 09/26/07, 10:41 AM

For the same reason i always burn whatever i can of cooldowns (bloodlust broch, blood fury) before doing aimedshot/multi (if possible)/arcane MD.

I lose dps burning the cooldowns and using aimedshot, but the extra threat to the tank and the resulting extra possible raid dps towards the threat cap is far greater than my own loss =)

kultheel · 09/27/07, 6:54 AM

Originally Posted by Dreamflow

I was wondering how good would 5/5 Imp Arcane Shot be? since 5 sec CD in a 1:1.5 rotation it would match it perfectly. Anyone has done some testing or something?

Been using this build for about two weeks now and love it. Multi on single target is overpriced and clunky to use in rotations. (1.5 Steady + 0.5 Multi + 0.5 Auto == be a robot or clip).

I find the auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady rotation easy to use, and free of situational considerations (CC etc.). It's fine to say Multi is only restricted on trash, but when trash is half the meat of an encounter (Hyjal), this becomes important.

If Multi will hit 2 or 3 targets, can always switch to:

Auto - steady - arcane - auto - multi - auto - steady - arcane - auto - steady

I don't feel my DPS is suffering due to it either:

Winterchill WWS (just the boss)

I don't have a before or after WWS comparison to post, but anecdotally can say sustaining 1000 DPS was tricky before the respec, and now is standard. (Seeing 1150 DPS at Teron)

Bags · 09/27/07, 7:57 AM

For all the number crunchers out there, let's assume the following:

2 hunters, 1 paladin, 10 raiders that can benefit from Expose Weakness in a 25 man raid.

One of the hunters is BM specced, the other Survival.

Survival hunter has 1068 AGI before kings, BM hunter has 589 AGI before kings, 1656AP, 29.34 crit.

10 raiders (warriors, rogues, and the 2 hunters benefit from EW)

Keeping in mind that kings gives the BM hunter agi and he benefits from the better EW AP..
Is Kings or might better for the hunters?

What if there are two BM hunters and one Survival hunter?

Thanks for the help...

Beovylf · 09/27/07, 10:54 AM

Need a hand here:

I'm trying to get some hard numbers to show my guildmates the benefits of me being survival specced... running numbers alone I can show them the boost in dps for regular attacks over X amount of time, but as great as this number is, they are of the opinion that if my name doesn't show up in the top 10 on the DM, then I am replaceable.

I do not have a hard time getting a raid spot now, I know all the fights and do my job quite well, but it is frustrating to feel as though I need to justify my raid spot and spec to my guildmates.

We are currently 3/5 through Hyjal and up to Gurtogg in BT. My armory page is: The Armory

Typically during boss fights, I am at 41% to crit and 982 agility. I can keep EW up for 95% of a boss fight. I have no shaman buffs, no feral buff, no shadow priests... on occassion I get a BM hunter in our group (he's our GM, and very good).

So basically what I am looking for here is some hardcore evidence I can present to them and show them exactly how beneficial it is to have me in the raid. Does anyone have any formula's they use for this? Any and all help is appreciated.

Zomghuntar · 09/27/07, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Beovylf

Need a hand here:

I'm trying to get some hard numbers to show my guildmates the benefits of me being survival specced... running numbers alone I can show them the boost in dps for regular attacks over X amount of time, but as great as this number is, they are of the opinion that if my name doesn't show up in the top 10 on the DM, then I am replaceable.

I do not have a hard time getting a raid spot now, I know all the fights and do my job quite well, but it is frustrating to feel as though I need to justify my raid spot and spec to my guildmates.

We are currently 3/5 through Hyjal and up to Gurtogg in BT. My armory page is: The Armory

Typically during boss fights, I am at 41% to crit and 982 agility. I can keep EW up for 95% of a boss fight. I have no shaman buffs, no feral buff, no shadow priests... on occassion I get a BM hunter in our group (he's our GM, and very good).

So basically what I am looking for here is some hardcore evidence I can present to them and show them exactly how beneficial it is to have me in the raid. Does anyone have any formula's they use for this? Any and all help is appreciated.

I can't look at your armory right now because it's blocked at work

But I've been raiding as survival for some time now and I don't suffer any huge dps loss from it. We raid with 2 rogues, enhancement shaman, 1-2 dps warriors, and a feral druid or 2 so my EW definitely helps the raid's overall DPS.

Your guild is pretty close to mine on progression. We are just now killing Archimonde and Essence of Souls, and I easily stay in the top 10 on pretty much every fight. Alot of those fights I can hang around top 1-5.

Beovylf · 09/27/07, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Zomghuntar

I can't look at your armory right now because it's blocked at work

But I've been raiding as survival for some time now and I don't suffer any huge dps loss from it. We raid with 2 rogues, enhancement shaman, 1-2 dps warriors, and a feral druid or 2 so my EW definitely helps the raid's overall DPS.

Your guild is pretty close to mine on progression. We are just now killing Archimonde and Essence of Souls, and I easily stay in the top 10 on pretty much every fight. Alot of those fights I can hang around top 1-5.

Hmm, then maybe it's my macros/shot rotation... do you mind if I ask what your shot rotation is and what if any macros you use?

I use:
#showtooltip
/assist [help, combat]
/stopmacro [help]
/castsequence reset=target/3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot

Then I manually weave Arcane shot in when I can.

Do you get grouped with feral's or the enhancement shammy?

Sapa · 09/27/07, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Beovylf

Need a hand here:

I'm trying to get some hard numbers to show my guildmates the benefits of me being survival specced...

Last BT. I'm 0/20/41 other 2 hunters are BM. We usually have only 1 group buff (GoA or Lotp).
WWS: Loading...
SV can dps with 1.5:1 rotation quite ok.

In WWS Naj'etus kill is one of worst for me... but still its 974 personal dps (no pet dps).
And for those wondering about low dps time sometimes... I do 2xMD (Aimed, Multi, Arcane) on most fights.

Some time ago we got somewhere to 1ap = 0.3 dps per melee/hunter. (My 1.1k agi + imp mark... ~+385ap = ~+115dps per AP user)
Lately people report to me that maybe we have number wrong.
Maybe its gear jump or just Teron where both BM Hunters and Rogues report ~150 dps gone on their graph when I die (this needs more research, happened on last try Teron in this WWS).

Reipin Pillage · 09/27/07, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bags

For all the number crunchers out there, let's assume the following:

2 hunters, 1 paladin, 10 raiders that can benefit from Expose Weakness in a 25 man raid.

One of the hunters is BM specced, the other Survival.

Survival hunter has 1068 AGI before kings, BM hunter has 589 AGI before kings, 1656AP, 29.34 crit.

10 raiders (warriors, rogues, and the 2 hunters benefit from EW)

Keeping in mind that kings gives the BM hunter agi and he benefits from the better EW AP..
Is Kings or might better for the hunters?

What if there are two BM hunters and one Survival hunter?

Thanks for the help...

Individual blessings are now 15 minutes, click off the greater and get the individual one you want.

I.E. If hunters get GBoK, and you want might, click off GBOkings and get an individual might which will last the fight.

Zomghuntar · 09/27/07, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by Beovylf

Hmm, then maybe it's my macros/shot rotation... do you mind if I ask what your shot rotation is and what if any macros you use?

I use:
#showtooltip
/assist [help, comba