• Glaurong

The 0.5 seconds isn't absolute. We don't know exactly how it works or if it is exactly 0.5 seconds. From everything observed so far ,it appears to be a spell cast that is initiated on the server when your auto shot cool is finished and you are standing still. The exact duration of the cast isn't known but from looking at combat logs it is about 0.5 seconds.

I suspect it varies a fair amount because it is initiated by the server and latency is variable. So you could have situations like the following.

000ms - Multi-Shot fires on the server
000ms - Server sends results of Multi-Shot to client
000ms - Auto shot begins casting
300ms - Client gets results of Multi-Shot (300ms traversing the internet)
500ms - Auto shot fires on the server
500ms - Server sends results of Auto shot to client
600ms - Client gets the message (100ms traversing the internet)

In this situation the delay would appear to be 300ms when in fact it was 500ms.

You should always keep this in mind when reading/parsing your combat logs. Every time stamp has some latency added to it. That latency is variable from one time stamp to the next.

Log Parser for BM Hunters (Right click, save as) - Updated 10/11/2007

 

Howitzer

So then how can you calculate the DPS values of a passive haste item vs. say; agi or crit? If you have Valestalker belt for example which adds about 3.45% haste, would that then mean you're basically doing 3.45% more damage? i.e.- passive FI? I just need a more skilled theorycrafter to spank out the mathematics of haste value vs. "everything else". I'm assuming here from my own experiences that passive haste is the most powerful buff an item can have on it right now for a Hunter as long as you're not going below the GCD etc.

 

The Iron Colonel

Haste benefit largely depends on the rotation being used. Pure auto/steady benefits from haste until you run into the user-error / GCD problem. Priority replacement will eventually run into cooldown issues (you simply CAN'T fire arcane and multi faster than the cooldown). Auto shot is pretty straightforward to calculate. If you've got a 3% haste mod, it's base damage / (attack speed / 1.03), which is the same as (1.03*base damage) / attack speed (so it's a straight 3% increase in dps). Until you reach the user error/gcd threshold, steady is the same way. Again with 3% haste, Damage / (Cast Time / 1.03) = (1.03*Damage) / Cast Time. Again, a 3% increase in dps.

It's somewhat unsatisfying, but for auto/steady, until you screw things up or reach the GCD barrier, haste is a linear damage increase. For Arcane/Multi, it's harder to determine (it largely depends on where the cooldown falls in your rotation - either it comes up in the middle of a window and you can fire it or it doesn't; if it doesn't, you have to determine if the added haste now moves the window such that it does...etc). I'm speaking very generally, of course, but for the specific case of auto and steady, this should be accurate.

Just remember, though, that haste is not a purely linear increase in dps (unless you just cast steady/auto). Arcane and Multi get little to no benefit from haste (largely dependant upon whether the haste repositions the window to cast with the cooldown such that they coincide better than they currently do).

 

Howitzer

Yep, I get what you're saying. Testing 2 haste items, (Mukoa gloves and Valestalker girdle 7% passive haste about), has benefited the Survival / Marks tree for me on rotations where you'll get that brief moment that you're waiting for the autoshot to fire while arcane / multi are on cooldown and starting another steady will result in an autoshot clip. In this scenario the haste value helped lessen the gap where I am simply doing no DPS waiting for the AS timer. What I'm very curious to see is a MM hunter with a X/4X/X or variant-type build with about 20% passive haste in itemization and then see his DPS compared to a BM hunter. Both would technically have Serpent's Swiftness.

 

jurgen

Barring a really fast weapon, there's nothing stopping a BM hunter from benefiting from haste as well O.o. It's a lot easier for a BM hunter to get the haste necessary to eliminate all downtime in a purely special/auto rotation than it is for a MM hunter to get down to the same level. Again it really depends on weapon speed, but I don't see marks catching up given current itemization

 

The Iron Colonel

Yeah, I've been curious about possibly itemizing MM/SV to match BM's haste too. Unfortunately, it appears to be both a non-trivial task to acquire said items (in terms of progression and luck with drops) and that you would be sacrificing substantial upgrades to RAP and Crit in order to pursue such a dream. Perhaps you could simulate it with a spreadsheet and avoid the potential heartbreak of getting gear and being disappointed.

Also, given that multishot is a major component of MM's dps (and talent base, at 6 points of investment), you'd be left with the choice of either not using it (and wasting talent points) or using it and essentially forgoing the large mana advantage that an auto/steady rotation has. Remember, it's not just the haste that makes auto/steady viable, but the relative mana economy over mm/sv style priority replacement rotations.

As it stands, I DO see a large advantage to having a single SV hunter in the raid (provided, obviously, that they have the gear to support the spec and aren't brain dead at the keyboard). Of course, this is largely dependant upon your raid composition, but I'd wager that most raids will have the 5-10 physical dpsers requisite to make SV worthwhile for the raid. MM, on the other hand, simply doesn't have the tools to make it appealing (of course, this is well discussed and documented, so I won't go into it more).

Does anyone have an appreciable amount of static haste gear (at least 10-15%) who would be willing to comment on the topic?

 

Howitzer

Actually, I think Djinn has 3 pieces of it and is at or above 10% passive haste. I'll try to badger him to reply.

 

Dreamflow

I was looking at some loots and found http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29924 if we dual wield those would they be better than http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28587 for surv?

 

Deepellem

Some tips of mine:

1) Oddly enough, the elementals aren't elementals at all. Use track humanoids to see them on radar.
2) Get a shadowpriest. I normally have one all the time (I'm usually the only hunter), but on some of our learning tries I didn't have one. Chain potting, double mana oils, mageblood, BoW, and even viper, I was unable to maintain enough mana to keep up with spawns. Granted, this is the survival thread (TotH might be the difference maker), but as deep MM and now BM, I found it untenable without a shadowpriest. I'm not normally one to bitch and moan about party make-up, but this is the one fight (we just killed Kael) where I insist on having one.
3) Try and stay near the top of the stairs, but not so close to the top as to get feared by a strider. Less chasing and eliminating that whole LoS thing with the top of the stairs.
4) Since we're not like warlocks (ie DoT it and forget it), I find communication pretty key to getting to tainteds as fast as possible. My roving healer normally says in vent or whispers me if there is a tainted in my area that I am not already running to.

Once you get used to the rhythm, a dive/dash pet isn't absolutely necessary. I learned the fight with my cat, but now feel comfortable enough to do it with my scorp. Just send it on to the next one as you finish that one off. While the elementals are immune to scorpid poison, it really does a number on Vash'j herself.

Good hunting and hopefully you'll get the bow on your first kill like I did.

 

Malthes

Well, yes, but at that point, wouldn't a different build become more useful?

Off the top of my head, you could max out both Efficiency and Imp. Hunter's Mark, then put the final three points into Careful Aim rather than putting six points into scatter shot.

 

Siknu

Havn't looked to much into it yet, but is it worth looking into the old Haste to gloves enchant? for a additional 10 rating to gloves? The main downfall would be losing +15 agi though.

 

The Iron Colonel

If you're doing 1000 personal DPS then 1% haste translate into 10 dps. 15 Agility is ~1 dps on auto shot alone and 15*0.2/2=1.5 dps on steady shot (using approximate autoshot timer as period between steadies - not strictly accurate but close enough for government work). 15 Agi is also ~0.67% to crit. Can 0.67% translate into 7.5 dps? Using (again) a simplisitic methodology, 1002.5+0.0067*1002.5 ~ 1009, which is close (and also fails to account for mortal shots and GftT, of which you almost certainly have mortal shots if you're MM or SV). With mortal shots, it's 1002.5+0.0067*1002.5*1.3 ~ 1011. Honestly, there probably aren't that many hunters who are doing 1k personal dps (I know of a few, but I would wager they are the minority). In all likelihood, 15 AGI will be superior to 1% haste (even this extremely simplistic example was able to show rough equivalence, if nothing else).

As for replacing the multishot talents with talents lower in the tree, that's certainly a possibility. I haven't done much testing with MM since I switched to BM - primarily due to work/school time restrictions and quirky raid scheduling. While I'm not going to make a hard and fast statement about that approach to MM, I would wager that would make you even more dependent upon haste gear to be competitive with other specs. Just my speculative $0.02 though.

 

Gearknight

Dual netherbane with +30 agi:

78 agi, 38 stam, 76 AP

Legacy with 35 agi:
75 agi, 46 stam, 80 AP, 8 mp5

This makes Legacy look better, because ~0.1% crit and ~1 AP more EW isn't worth the loss of 8 mp5. Netherbanes become better when using 2 mana oils or crit stones, though.

 

The Iron Colonel

Biggest problem with Netherbane is prying it from the cold dead hands of an enhancement shaman. It's definitely worth getting if you have access to it, use crit stones regularly, and can't get something better. Given where it comes from, you might have been better off comparing it to Twin Blade of the Phoenix (though I realize the quoted post referred to Legacy).

 

Sapa

Agreed on Netherbane + Enh.Shaman. Passed first drop to one.
But Twin Blade... huh we downed Al'ar ~6 or 7 times now by the time it will drop it might take a while. And will start on Kael in 2 days now that we downed Lady Vashj yesterday.

Woot Vashj down:
http://www.vinlacvicek.com/images/ar...y_down_big.jpg

Definitely one of best fights i saw so far.
*FD+Drinking is quite possible for first ~40sec into phase 2 since all dps is "free".
*Don't use group loot, bugged tainted elementals once

WWS:
Zek - WWS

***
Currently using 0/28/33 spec and decided to switch to 0/24/36 +1 somewhere or back to 0/20/41.

Extra dps from 3/5 RWS just can't cover for TotH mana regain in my opinion with SV spec on most longer fights. 3/3 Barrage well i like 3k+ multi shot crits and quite good ~9 DPM with r6 multi.

I don't use KC at all and my mana goes down the drain too fast for pots, dual oils and mageblood with max special usage without TotH. Only exception would be having guaranteed place with SP, but arcane mages and BM hunters group better with them. And I kinda like GoA if possible.

And with "new improved" rotation my mana usage will increase again. (planning to start using KC in same way as arcane and multi shots - after steady and manually)

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/sig.php/511456SFyyX.png

 

soulesschild

I still can't decide whether 2/3 TOTH and 3/3 EW is better or worse then 3/3 TOTH and 2/3 EW ><

 

Zurgat

I'm trying to make a quick list of agility items (didn't see anyone make one yet), to see how high i can get my agility with gear alone.
But i'm missing a certain detail, what is the base agility at lvl 70?

Note: I'm still lacking Tier 5/6 on the list below, but they'll be added as well eventually.

Edit: Updated list is on the next page.

-= Random Ravings - RSS Feed =- Rogue and Hunter stuff here. As well as guides to get you trough your spare time.

 

Carlaena

I hope this is the correct place for this sort of discussion.
First, thanks to everyone for their input to this threat, and the forum as a whole. Some amazing tools to help us all.

I'm having trouble getting my head round some screenshots I see on the forums, and some stories I read. Seeing some hunters with normal autoshots hitting for over 800 damage each, and approaching 1000dps in some fights. Very impressive things. I'm very jealous.

Cheeky's spreadsheet is certainly an impressive and very useful tool, and helps us model what we could be aiming for. But it's quite hard to tell how much of that theoretical representation we can carry into the game. There are so many different mobs with different resistances and armor values. Different requirements in terms of movement which disturbs shot rotation. It's hard, when I see people claiming to have got ***dps, to know how and under what circumstances. What buffs they had and what role that person was asked to play in the fight. And even knowing all those factors, how do I compare those to what I and others have recorded for ourselves?

I'm in a guild that does weekly visits to Kara, but hasn't yet been as far as Gruul. Our server is still very young. So there is, of course, a cap on the quality of gear I can obtain. That said, I feel im fairly well equiped.

I was hoping people could provide some critique, and perhaps present their own data, on how their specs/builds perform on a normalized Dr.Boom testing. It would be really interesting to see how we all compare to each other when all other factors are normalized. To see what really is achievable. Theorycrafting on paper is all very well, but It would be very beneficial to be able to look at peoples profiles and specs and compare Dr.Boom stats, to see what more is achievable, and how to achieve it.

I going to take a trip to see MR.Boom himself just now. Using only a simple spamming macro:
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();UIErrorsFrame:Show();

Only self buffs(only hawk for me, others might have TA) and hunters mark. I'll have my pet active for FF. Apart from that, no pots or food or any other fancy spells
My profile is The Armory so people can see my gear.
My spec is 7-20-34 (also viewable in my profile)
I'll do 4 mana bars to hopefully even out any randomness.

I'll post my boom results shortly. Hopefully others would like to take 5 minutes to do the same. It would make interesting reading for me personally, and I'm sure others too.

 

Carlaena

OK so these are my numbers here. I did 5 mana bars on Boom. Each one lasting 2 mins(I feigned when hunters mark timed out...coincidentally the same time as my mana lasts).

If anyone more in the know than I can provide any critique, that would be great. Or if people would like to do similar to see how we compare with the same buffs/macros/target but different builds/talents/gears etc.



The bottom box is SWS showing the DPS over the 5 sessions.

I'm feeling that my average shots are hitting for a lot less than other peoples arre(that I read on the forum). Also a lot less than Cheekys SS suggests I could be. Any constructive criticism?


EDIT: I just remembered that I forgot to have my pet active. Which is 2% extra damage I could have got. So it should read a fraction under 700dps.

EDIT2: Does anyone know the armour rating of Dr.Boom so I can plug the numbers into Cheeky's SS and see what it thinks I should be getting?

 

◊ Lactose

A quick search (boom+armor) gave a post stating a 38% armor reduction.
Keep in mind if you're using the spreadsheet, the RAP gain from the mark won't be 440 (like the spreadsheet lists it as) before you've fired 30 shots.
In other words, your average damage will be lower since the spreadsheet is using a 440 RAP bonus instead of the 110 --> 440 RAP bonus.

SNAKEBALL™

 

Carlaena

Thanks for the 38%. A big help. Wow, the first time I've been able to model the spreadsheet and test it fully. It's almost spot on with my DPS once I plug in armour rating and the correct rotation.

 

Sapa

0/24/37 spec and TK 3/4 farm day.

Used Major Agility Elixir and Warp Burger each fight + had totem (1043agi)

(void reaver shows try1, should be death as it definitely did fall )
Zek - WWS

3/3 TotH mana regain is just great.

http://sigs.guildlaunch.net/sig.php/511456SFyyX.png