SURVIVAL Raiding in 2.1 - Page 51

jsegrich · 03/14/08, 4:31 AM

Hi all, any thoughts on upgrades to the gear that I have - just starting SSC/TK now, but am i missing something that I should have already? 31% crit seems kind of low to me at this stage (from the in game calculation) - why does Cheeky's calculate it higher at 34.63%... Also, Im a bit confused on the whole shot rotation/macro discussion... which is best for someone like me and what macro would I use - I assume that is instead of trying to hit the keys on my own... thanks

Tiberium · 03/14/08, 9:22 AM

Grondarg · 03/14/08, 10:21 AM

Tiberium by realistic restraints do you mean your exluding 2.4 gear? I ask because there are some really nice peices i think would go good in a Surv set. Espcially with 3 extra peices of T6 to help get the 4 peice easier.

jsegrich · 03/14/08, 11:56 AM

Whats the thought on the readyness talent - is it worth getting over perhaps geting other bits on trees that can enhance ur dps or AGI further suce as

7/21/33 For alot more dps (Hunter Talents)
0/27/34 For maxing your agi build to boost more (Hunter Talents)

just trying to weigh it out

Zurgat · 03/14/08, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Tiberium

As a supplement to post 17 in this thread thought it would be a fun thing to post a best in slot Survival setup at end game using "realistic" restraints thus the following caveats.

1) Use the 4 piece Gronnstalker's plus [Bow-stitched Leggings] as the base combo as I think everyone agrees this is the best set up

2) Use the highest Agi items available

3) Exclude the use of [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] as it would take 6 months of farming Illi before dropping to a hunter. Exclude also [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Quickstrider Moccasins] although these provide better personal DPS, they have less Agi.

4) Achieve 96 hit rating required for SV

Always good to see some feedback.
I made a list here as well : Random Ravings of Warcraft: Survival hunter gear
With Tier 4, tier 5, tier 6, and sunwell setups in mind.
It's not perfect yet, but suggestions are always welcome.
I also haven't listed exactly which gems to use yet, i probably should.

#1 : Obvious choice.
#2 : Obvious choice.
#3 : The money belt is actually very good, and not a single rogue in our guild has rolled for it yet.
#4 : 95 hit rating is the cap if you are not using 20 hit rating food, or don't have a Moonkin druid in the raid. If your raid has a moonkin the hit cap suddenly becomes a mere 48, which is quite easily reached, and will allow you to move a few talent points around.

Could you add a total calculation how much agility, hit rating, armor penetration your gear setup provides?
And, could you make a setup for 2.4 as well?
This would make it easier to analyze your list, and give constructive feedback.

Instead of yellow gems, you could use [Glinting Pyrestone] to provide more hit rating.

[Dagger of Bad Mojo] is said to be a better choice than the halberd, the armor penetration will greatly improve your personal dps, gives only slightly less, and will enable you to use two mana oils instead of a single one.

ghungadihn · 03/14/08, 12:30 PM

Tiberium-
You said Barrel-Blade Longrifle, did you mean Legionkiller? I have my eye on the Legionkiller as it has agi on it good slow speed and we raid with 3 hunters total so the others can have the other ranged weps.

Regarding Dagger of Bad Mojo, per my calcs, 2x Blade of Infamy are better than anything else, even Trollbane with Spinels in it. To the tune of like 5 personal dps and 4 agi. Is there something that I am missing with the Mojo's?

Sore82 · 03/14/08, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by ghungadihn

Tiberium-
You said Barrel-Blade Longrifle, did you mean Legionkiller? I have my eye on the Legionkiller as it has agi on it good slow speed and we raid with 3 hunters total so the others can have the other ranged weps.

Regarding Dagger of Bad Mojo, per my calcs, 2x Blade of Infamy are better than anything else, even Trollbane with Spinels in it. To the tune of like 5 personal dps and 4 agi. Is there something that I am missing with the Mojo's?

I believe he posted what would be MAX Agility, disregarding some items which may be more personal DPS. The BBLR has a max potential of 36Agility, where as the Leigonkiller has 21 Agility.

And you are correct about Blades of Infamy being > anything else for max agility.

Schniepel · 03/14/08, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Sore82

And you are correct about Blades of Infamy being > anything else for max agility.

Actually dual [Umbral Shiv] with spinels would give 8 agility more, although being obviously worse in terms of personal dps.

Sore82 · 03/14/08, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by Schniepel

Actually dual [Umbral Shiv] with spinels would give 8 agility more, although being obviously worse in terms of personal dps.

Good point, I suppose if you REALLY dont care about your own personal DPS, those would work, heh.

SomeRandomIdiot · 03/14/08, 1:42 PM

Tiberium-
I think you're missing some important pieces in your estimate, because you're completely ignoring personal dps. I'd argue that in some instances, your personal dps is also important and should not be ignored. Some of your other restraints are odd: for instance, I've managed to pick up a Cursed Vision of Sargeras, as has our enhancement shaman. We've seen 4 of them drop so far, and I believe I may have beaten out a rogue to the second- if it's best in slot, it's best in slot. Don Alejandro's Money Belt and Quickstrider Moccasins are also peices I'd recommend using, because they mean a *slight* drop in agility while adding considerably more stats for personal dps. I'm pretty sure I logged out in PVP gear (yes, that's how terrible my PVP gear is...) but aside from swapping Akama ring for Signet of Primal Wrath, I think my gear setup is ideal for a survival hunter entering Sunwell.

Helm: [Gronnstalker's Helmet]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
[Arcanum of Ferocity]

Neck: [Necklace of the Deep]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]

Shoulders: [Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Greater Inscription of the Blade] (because I'm Scryer)

Back: [Thalassian Wildercloak]
[Enchant Cloak - Greater Agility]

Chest: [Gronnstalker's Chestguard]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Enchant Chest - Exceptional Stats]

Bracers: [Bracers of the Pathfinder]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
24AP to Bracers (can't find it in wowhead)

Gloves: [Gronnstalker's Gloves]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Formula: Enchant Gloves - Superior Agility]

Belt: [Don Alejandro's Money Belt]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]

Pants: [Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Nethercobra Leg Armor]

Boots: [Quickstrider Moccasins]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Enchant Boots - Dexterity]

Ring1: [Band of the Eternal Champion]

Ring2: [Signet of Primal Wrath]

Trinket1: [Berserker's Call]

Trinket2: [Madness of the Betrayer]

Melee Weapon: [Halberd of Desolation]
[Legplates of the Bold]

Ranged Weapon: [Bristleblitz Striker]
[Stabilized Eternium Scope]

If anyone has a better idea, I'd love to hear it- this has been my ideal gear setup, and if I can improve on it I'd like to.

Edit: dang I suck at links.

Whitefyst · 03/14/08, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by jsegrich

Hi all, any thoughts on upgrades to the gear that I have - just starting SSC/TK now, but am i missing something that I should have already? 31% crit seems kind of low to me at this stage (from the in game calculation) - why does Cheeky's calculate it higher at 34.63%... Also, Im a bit confused on the whole shot rotation/macro discussion... which is best for someone like me and what macro would I use - I assume that is instead of trying to hit the keys on my own... thanks

Concerning your crit value in Cheeky's, it includes the calculated average benefit from your MT talent. Look at the calculation of crit % on the Calculations tab to see the details.

Concerning you spec, I like it for the most part, but them again it is nearly identical to mine so I am a little partial. One comment is that you have 2 points in Trap Mastery. As has been documented in this thread, you only need 1 point in Trap Mastery in order to be able to trap everything that can be trapped. The 2nd point is a waste. Suggest moving it to something else lower in the tree. My preferences are Deterrence (can save your live in many situations, especially while waiting for FD to cooldown) or Clever Traps.

Concerning your gear, for the most part, you have very good gear for starting SSC/TK; however, I do have a few observations and comments:

1) Your base mana is low. Unless you have a SP, ret pally, or shaman helping with mana regen, I forsee some possible mana problems. This is due to wearing leather pieces. There is nothing wrong with wearing leather for better DPS as long as it doesn't cause you to go OOM and actually kick out less DPS. If you are not having mana problems, then disregard this item. But if you are, I suggest replacing 1 or more of the leather pieces, even if it results in less agility. This wearing on leather also results in lower armor and survivability.

2) You have some unideal, and in some cases just plain weird, gem choices. These are:
- The +4 agi and +5 def gem in your shoulders. Why +def? My preference for yellow gems for meta and socket bonus requirements are [Glinting Noble Topaz] since provides agility and hit. Other good options if do not care about the agi as much, which I do, are [Wicked Noble Topaz], which generall gives slightly better DPS than the glinting but at a cost of you EW proc, and [Jagged Talasite], which is preferred by those wanting to get there meta gem requirements with using less non-agility gems.
- In your helm is a +8 crit gem. This is not bad for a yellow socket requirement, but either of the two Noble Topaz options above are better.
- In your gloves is the +15 sta gem. I can understand the desire to use such a good gem; however, in my opinion, [Shifting Nightseye] is better. Sure you lose 9 sta, but that is only about 100 health, but you gain 4 agi, which is 5.06 with LR and BoK. IMO, the +5 AP, +0.23% crit, +10 armor, +0.20% dodge, and +1.27 AP on EW proc you get from the 5.06 agi far outweigh 100 health.

3) I see that you are in an arena team, but am not wearing any arena gear. Some of the arena pieces, such as the s3 helm, s2 shoulders, and s3 legs, are big upgrades. Suggest getting the s3 helm first, since its a huge upgrade over T4 and is better than anything until T6.

4) Another way to help with mana problems if you have any are to acquire 2 1 hand weapons and put mana oils on both. In TK, [Netherbane] off of Alar is a great option that also is superior to Legacy. [Dagger of Bad Mojo] off of Hexxlord in ZA are also good as are a few other options currently available to you.

Good luck!

Whitefyst · 03/14/08, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by SomeRandomIdiot

Tiberium-
I think you're missing some important pieces in your estimate, because you're completely ignoring personal dps. I'd argue that in some instances, your personal dps is also important and should not be ignored. Some of your other restraints are odd: for instance, I've managed to pick up a Cursed Vision of Sargeras, as has our enhancement shaman. We've seen 4 of them drop so far, and I believe I may have beaten out a rogue to the second- if it's best in slot, it's best in slot. Don Alejandro's Money Belt and Quickstrider Moccasins are also peices I'd recommend using, because they mean a *slight* drop in agility while adding considerably more stats for personal dps. I'm pretty sure I logged out in PVP gear (yes, that's how terrible my PVP gear is...) but aside from swapping Akama ring for Signet of Primal Wrath, I think my gear setup is ideal for a survival hunter entering Sunwell.

I agree with SomeRandomIdiot concerning not trying blindly to maximize agility. Although agility is the most important attribute for a survival hunter, it is not the only beneficial attribute. Maximizing agility will not maximize your personal or even your raid contribution DPS since some of the best agility items are inferior DPS items.

My goal as a survival hunter is to maximize my overall raid DPS contribution. This means balancing my personal DPS and my EW proc. Some items will improve both, but much more often items are a tradeoff between the two. Now this tradeoff is not an exact science since you have the AP to DPS conversion which is not constant between classes and the benefit of EW depends not only on the number of physical DPS in the raid but also the number of them on your target.

To do the trade off, I use Cheeky's spreadsheet to determine the delta personal DPS and delta AP on average EW of a possible upgrade item against my current item. I then determine the delta raid DPS by adding the personal DPS to (delta AP for EW proc * 0.3 * 8 other physical DPS). If the net result is a positive, it is an upgrade for me. In some cases, I may choose an item with a slight negative value if it has a large personal DPS gain since that item will probably result in overall more raid damage since I am not always on the same target as all of the other physical DPS.

I like SomeRandomIdiot choices better. However, going with his gear selection, I would switch two gems though. In the chest, where he put a purple gem in a yellow slot, I would instead but the red gem. Then in the bracers, I would replace the red gem in the blue socket with a purple gem. Basically, just switching the 2 gems in the indicated sockets. The benefit is not much, but it is 0.9 personal DPS and 0.03 average EW proc.

I would also offer a couple gear changes from his choices. These are to replace the bracers with the [Insidious Bands] with the orange gem and the boots with [Star-Strider Boots] with 2 red gems. This requires a little regemming in other slots to make the meta requirements. I change 1 red in the shoulders to a purple to meet meta requirements. This results in being under the hit cap by 4 points, which is no big deal. The result is +5.72 personal DPS and +2.24 AP on average EW proc for a total of +11.10 raid DPS over the regemmed version of SomeRandomIdiot's list.

Now if you really want that hit cap, you could replace the red in the yellow socket of the shoulders with an orange to get one over the cap by 1 and to meet that piece's socket bonus. This results in +0.76 personal DPS but -1.58 AP on average EW proc for a total loss of about 3 raid DPS. So, I personally would live with being a little under the cap.

Note that this analysis was done with my 0/20/41 spec and a 1:1.5 rotation that uses both arcane shot and multishot on my Tauren. Results will vary with different specs, rotations, and races.

For my suggestion, here are the total unbuffed stats:

Health: 10947
Armor: 7215
Mana: 6523
Resilience: 0.00%
Dodge: 32.87%
Hit vs. Level 73: 99.77% (91 hit rating)
Crit vs. Level 73: 40.74%
Hunter DPS: 1003.43
Pet DPS: 171.11
Total DPS: 1174.54
EW Uptime: 96.47%
Average EW proc: 231.03 AP
Effective RAP: 3325

From gear with enchants and race:

Armor: 5299
Strength: 75
Agility: 958
Stamina: 609
Intellect: 228
Spirit: 81
AP: 1198
Crit: 161
Hit: 91
mp5: 12
Pen: 392
Haste: 0

ohrion · 03/14/08, 6:09 PM

I would suggest going with SomeRandomIdiot's setup with the following changes:
[Cobra-Lash Boots]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]

[Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Delicate Crimson Spinel]
[Glinting Pyrestone]
[Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]

[Insidious Bands]
[Glinting Pyrestone]

All other gems would be [Delicate Crimson Spinel].

You'll gain some hit and agility over what you have there unless my math is bad. Which is possible.

I'd suggest perhaps including the following information with the best possible gear propositions in the future:

Agi
Crit
AP
Hit
ArPen

Might make comparison a little more straightforward.

Wunlastri · 03/14/08, 8:11 PM

Originally Posted by jsegrich

Whats the thought on the readyness talent - is it worth getting over perhaps geting other bits on trees that can enhance ur dps or AGI further suce as

7/21/33 For alot more dps (Hunter Talents)
0/27/34 For maxing your agi build to boost more (Hunter Talents)

just trying to weigh it out

Ironically, I have seen myself do more dps with full SV build. This is anecdotal so take it with a grain of salt or not at all.

• CSM-EH · 03/14/08, 8:17 PM

@somerandomidiot

You talk about the importance of personal DPS and yet you'd rather sport a double spinel Necklace of the Deep over the Telonicus piece?

BTW nice WWS Gorefiend log, but being able to roll 2 lusts is hardly the norm. People should take that log with a grain of salt.

• Intermission · 03/14/08, 8:24 PM

Id prefer [Shadowmaster's Boots]. I havent ran it through the spreadsheets, but from a quick look it seems to be better. More stam too is always an important thing.

Also I think it's a little silly to exclude Cursed Vision, Insidious Bands, Shadowmaster's, etc. If we're making a 'best in game' set, it's safe to assume we have access to it.

(on that note, we've had 9 Cursed Visions drop in 26 kills. First went to a shaman, then a rogue > shaman > hunter > hunter > rogue > hunter > rogue > druid. Quite a retarded amount of one item. However we've had zero glaives and only 1 bow in those 26 kills

)