SomeRandomIdiot

Vasilii-
It's looking like Clutch of Demise off Brutallus (25 AGI 33 STAM 30 HASTE 64 AP) is an upgrade to the Kael neck. I think the haste helps tighten the rotation a bit, because it's giving me 10 dps.

I'm actually excited about what you've found. I was worried that I wouldn't be replacing much come Sunwell, but that's definitely going to happen. I'm gonna keep my Cursed Vision, T6 Shoulders, Thalassian Wildercloak, and Signet of Primal Wrath (still don't have that one... need to get off my lazy butt and do more ZA).

In any case, if anyone finds anything better I'd love to see it- it'll definitely help myself and others know what we should pick up when Sunwell goes live.

 

Whitefyst

Good stuff, but here are some suggestions for possible improvement (don't have the time to fully figure it out ATM though):

1) For the head, consider [Duplicitous Guise]. Yes, its more leather, but it appears to be a significant upgrade over Cursed Vision with about 18 more DPS and 0.7 more EW AP when comparing both against my current helm.

2) For the chest, that is an awesome piece, but there is actually a better mail piece, at least if you are a leatherworker. The crafted [Embrace of the Phoenix]. From my quick analysis, it is about 9 more DPS and 3 more AP on EW proc along with more mana, armor, and dodge.

3) For the legs, those leather ones are very nice, but I believe I would prefer the [Starstalker Legguards]. Since you have 16 extra HR, the loss of 12 HR with the switch is not a problem. The mail legs are about a 5 DPS loss, but you gain about 3 on EW AP, which can make up for the personal DPS loss. Plus, you get more health, mana, dodge, and armor with the mail piece.

4) For the rings, I would choose [Band of the Eternal Champion] and the crafted [Hard Khorium Band]. The [Band of the Eternal Champion] appears slightly better than the two rings you chose, and [Hard Khorium Band] is by far the best ring for a Survival hunter. Unlike the crafted neck, it does not appear that you need to be a JC to wear the ring.

5) For the trinkets, I believe that [Blackened Naaru Sliver] works out better than the ZA trinket.

EDIT: Concerning the trinket, it is possible that it doesn't exist and that it was a fake. However, it is in Cheeky's spreadsheet, and here is a link showing it:

Sunwell Loots - Not so fake.

It provides 54 haste. It has a proc on hit chance to enter a Battle Trance during which melee or range attacks will grant 44 AP stacking up to 10 times and expiring after 20s.

 

Sore82

Stats? I could not find this on Wowhead, mmo-champion or anywhere else.

 

Sore82

There seems to be a fine line when adding +Haste items to Survival builds. In many cases, by taking +Haste, you are giving up other stats - such as agility, armor pen, or whatever else. And there seems to be a needed amount to make the +Haste worth it. Adding a couple of +Haste pieces has the potential to throw off your shot rotation completly, to the point where a macro might not work anymore due to clipping. You see this a lot with items like DST or talents like iAotH or Rapid Fire, where you essentially have to change rotations to compensate for the added +Haste.

I see the goal of getting +Haste to the point of shooting you bow as fast as a BM Hunter and moving from a 1:1.5 rotation to a 1:1 or 2:3 rotation...but what is that number exactly...and in the end is it worth it compared to the other possibilities out there? If it has +Haste on it, it doesnt have +Armor Pen (usually)...so what is better? I have heard good things about both, but it seems like +Hast takes a lot more +Haste items to become truly beneficial, where as +Armor Pen does not.

I know with Sunwell, there are several new +Haste items...so I guess my question comes down to...is it worth it? And if it is worth it, at what point should you start wearing +Haste over other gear without a loss of DPS due to a messy shot rotation?

 

Vasilii

Making the suggested replacements would yield a significant amount of passive haste and will be highly disruptive to a 1:1.5 rotation. My goal in creating the set was zero haste but I do like SomeRandom's suggestion in replacing the neck. Excellent find there! I can see using 1 piece of passive haste gear to tighten the rotation by just a bit, using 2 pieces of haste gear is too much IMO.

1) My DPS dropped by 10 using duplicitous gaze over Cursed Vision.

2) Not sure how you came to this conclusion, using the embrace of the phoenix vs. bladed chaos drops my dps by over 50!

3) I also had the starstalker legs drop my dps by almost 21 vs. leggings of the immortal night. I will definitely be using the leather here

4) Hard Khorium Band again has haste rating, it dropped by dps by 10 vs. the ZA signet. I have the signet and the new badges ring as by far the best way to go for survival. Band of eternal champion is not nearly as good as either the signet or the badges ring.

5) I don't see how you could use the Naruu trinket, it dropped my dps by almost 40.

I'm trying to fool around with a passive haste gear build using 5/20/36 but can't find anything that matches unhasted 1:1.5

Perhaps you were using 1:1.5 Imp. Arcane? I could see haste being beneficial with that setup.

If you are modeling the 1:1.5 with multi/arcane you have to hand type it in, make sure in your setting and results tab it says 1:1.5 and not 1:1.3. The Spreadsheet attempts to avoid clipping so if you choose the standard 1:1.5 it really downgrades it to a 1:1.3 to avoid clipping but the clipping will increase your dps.

 

Vasilii

I have been attempting to model a set that uses 1:1 priority with 3.0 Speed bow using 5/20/36, with DST and IAotH. The results are terrible, it vastly under performs an unhasted 1:1.5 rotation by over 200 dps. The problem becomes that I'm stacking 14% passive haste but to do so but still must maintain T6 4 piece bonus. The legendary is 3.0 speed, using anything else is not an option because how much of an upgrade it is.

Using a 3:2 with my passive haste gear is much better, but still almost 100 dps below unhasted 1:1.5

I'm using steady spam when DST or IAotH procs.

Please experiment yourselfs and see what happens.

 

SomeRandomIdiot

Posted this a month or so back, I think it should help things.

Interestingly... I was wondering this exact same thing as I sat here at work. (yes, I should be working...) In order to hit 20% haste (equivalent of Serpent's Swiftness) you'd need 314 Haste Rating.

I modeled it out in Cheeky's spreadsheet, and here's what I found: it's not worth it. Using the new gear, I modeled myself out to a raid buffed total of 1243 AGI, 784 STAM, 292 INT, 1474 +AP, 265 +CRIT, 99 +HIT, 364 PEN, and 295 HASTE. I had to add an additional 54 haste rating to my weapon and not use a trinket because Cheeky doesn't support adding trinkets, and I was unable to add in the T6 set bonus using the new pieces of T6, but even with those stats a 1:1 rotation shows a total DPS of 1235, compared to my current gear and shot rotation giving a DPS of 1533.

Things I added:
Shivering Felspine (52agi, Y socket, 53 haste, 120AP) - Polearm
Clutch of Demise (25agi, 33stam, 30 haste, 64AP) - Neck
Duplicitous Guise (43agi, 57stam, RM socket, 30 hit, 34 haste, 126AP) - Helm
Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm (41agi, 33stam, RB socket, 30 haste, 82AP) - Gloves
Embrace of the Phoenix (44agi, 43stam, 30int, RRR socket, 44haste, 104 AP) - Chest
Gronnstalker's Bracers (23agi, 25stam, 16int, R socket, 22haste, 64AP) - Bracers
Gronnstalker's Belt (29agi, 36stam, 17int, R socket, 25crit, 86AP, 140 pen) - Belt
Gronnstalker's Boots (30agi, 30stam, 21int, Y socket, 28crit, 86AP, 96 pen) - Boots
Hard Khorium Band (30agi, 42stam, 28haste, 58AP) - Ring
Starstalker Legguards (57agi, 49stam, 24int, YBB socket, 20hit, 120AP) - Pants
Blackened Naaru Sliver (54haste, Chance on Hit to gain a proc) - Unable to add, added the 54haste to the spear.

Also used:
Gronnstalker's Spaulders
Thalassian Wildercloak
Ring of Deceitful Intent
Berserker's Call
Bristleblitz Striker

I put 10agi gems in each socket save for:
Pants: Glinting Pyrestone, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst, Delicate Crimson Spinel
Boots: Glinting Pyrestone
Gloves; Delicate Crimson Spinel, Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst

Spec was 7/20/34.

Obviously the lack of the trinket proc and T6 4piece set bonus hurt the dps, but even so this doesn't seem like a competitive build despite having exceptional sunwell gear. I've never done the BM thing, so I can't exactly say why all of the haste doesn't come near the dps of my BT/Hyjal geared hunter with imp arcane shot, but I think the numbers are definitely there to answer the question. If anyone else has done the math and come up with different answers I'd be interested to know, but this is definitely leading me toward the haste avoidance course of action.

 

Sore82

Thats perfect and exactly what I was looking for. I, personally, have never been a big fan of haste, especially random +haste like iAotH or DST. I think that there are a few items in Sunwell that have _haste on them, that we could use and not effect our normal DPS rotations...but I think we need to be very careful about getting to the point where our own personal DPS is effected by +haste.

I already have a list made of of Sunwell items I want to get, and most of them are the +armor pen items, as opposed to +haste. I think for our build, this is the best option for us. I can see the benefits of +haste, but for our spec, I think +haste needs to come in very small incriminates as oppose to stacking it up and trying to get a BM-type rotation going.

 

Whitefyst

There are two aspects of haste. One being adding a little to tighten up a rotation. The second being adding a lot to be able to switch rotations. It is important not to get those two aspects confused. Adding haste to accomplish either of those tasks can benefit your DPS. However, being in between those two thresholds can have adverse affects if not handled properly. I have not personally done a full haste analysis so I cannot tell you what all the adverse affects can be, but possibly clipping shots is one of themand lowering your DPS is one major one.

I am in favor adding a little haste to tighten up a rotation since you can get a significant bang (in increased DPS) for a relatively low buck (in allocating a little of your item level in haste instead of other stat types like agi, pen, etc.). I am not a big fan of trying to add enough passive haste to be able to outperform a 1:1.5 rotation on a 2.9 or 3.0 weapon with a 1:1 rotation since that requires sacrificing a lot of item level into haste instead of other stat types. I prefer to accomplish the rotation change with dynamic haste effects, such as RF and haste potions, instead.

Concerning how much haste is needed for either (or both) of those aspects, unfortunately there is no definitive answer to be used in all cases. Even with assuming an ideally executed rotation, it mostly depends on your range weapon speed and your standard rotation. I personally have not done analysis over all weapon speeds and rotations to determine how much haste is needed to tighten up a rotation or to switch rotations, but it definitely is not one size fits all.

Additional factors include how your chosen rotation is actually executed, such as latency and whether you hand-weave or use a macro as well as the design of the macro. Some macros that are fixed cast sequences will nicely tighten up with a little haste but will "break" once you pass a haste threshold and will not perform well since it is then trying to perform a non-ideal rotation for that amount of haste. Haste, whether it is passive or dynamic, and those type of macros do not work well together. Other macros that have a more flexible design can change your rotation up accordingly under all haste situations; however, some of these flexible macros do not always implement ideal rotations. Hence, if you are using haste gear and a shot macro, you need to make sure to select a macro that works well with your base weapon speed, desired rotation, and amount of passive haste. Using a 1:1 steady-auto macro and then hand weaving in the specials (arcane shot and multishot) with changing up the number of steady shots in between specials when under various haste effects is what works best for me.

If you want to see good shot rotations to be used under various haste effects for your character, then I suggest putting in your actual gear (with static haste) into Cheeky's with choosing the proper modeling for your rotation and how you execute it. This should show you what your base, non-dynamic haste rotation should be. In the hand change area on the Gear tab, you can then add in various amounts of dynamic haste comparable to the various haste effects to see how your shot rotation can change under those effects. If you choose macro, it often fixes your rotation, and the rotation will break after exceeding the amount of haste to ideally tighten it up and you will either see your DPS drop or not change much with haste. If you model hand-weaving, the spreadsheet usually modifies your rotation accordingly under the various haste effects.

If you want to see how various amounts of static haste effects your rotation, then choose different pieces of haste gear and see how it affects the rotations.

Sometimes you may want to modify your macro to fit your gear to get better DPS than modifying your gear to best meet your macro.

Sorry. I guess I did not make myself clear enough since I was rushing putting in my response while at work.

As I stated, I didn't have enough time to do a full analysis, but I didn't clearly state what I meant by that. What I meant was that I didn't have enough time to assemble your suggested set and then to try different modifications to them. The data I provided was with comparing putting in those different pieces of gear to upgrade that single spot with my current gear set. That is why I said "consider" such and such instead of saying those pieces should be used. The data provided was from that analysis, which was the best I could do at that time.

Obviously, with me not using the complete set of gear with those synergies, especially with the different weapon speed, my result will vary from yours. However, some of the pieces you say are downgrades may actually be better depending on how you model your rotation as mentioned in my response above.

I also never meant for you to include all of those pieces at once, especially the haste ones, just to consider each individually since the partial analysis I did was only on a slot at a time not a full set. When I have more time, I may do a full analysis.

Under haste effects, unless very high amounts in which case I do a 1:1 rotation, I still use both arcane and multishot in appropriate locations. I just allow more steadies in between them as necessary.

 

Glynn

I've been looking at this for a while as well, and with a few changes, it gets a lot closer. For one thing, [Dragonspine Trophy] instead of [Berserker's Call] makes a big difference. Also, focusing on so much haste isn't necessarily the best way to do it. Balance between stats works a lot better.

Since I use the OO version, there could be errors in this. I don't have access to microsoft office, so if someone could double-check this on the latest version, I'd appreciate it.

Set 1 Gear (Standard gear):
Melee weapon: [Shiv of Exsanguination] x2
Head: [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
Neck: [Necklace of the Deep] (As long as we're counting EW DPS as well, might as well use this)
Shoulders: [Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
Back: [Thalassian Wildercloak]
Chest: [Bladed Chaos Tunic]
Wrist: [Gronnstalker's Bracers]
Hands: [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
Waist: [Gronnstalker's Belt]
Legs: [Leggings of the Immortal Night]
Feet: [Gronnstalker's Boots]
Rings: [Signet of Primal Wrath] and [Angelista's Revenge]
Trinkets: [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Berserker's Call]
Range weapon: [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas](obviously the legendary would be better, but I'm not sure if the OO version is handling it correctly(no way to stop it from using the quiver?), so I'll stick with this one for now)

[Delicate Crimson Spinel] in everything except for [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] in the boots and the helm.

Set 1 Total DPS: 2779.615
Hunter DPS: 1821.66
Pet DPS: 227.33
EW DPS: 1169 Agility / 1.6 = 730.625
Avg EW on Mob: 289.46
Rotation: 1:1.5
Night Elf, Wind Serpent Pet, No KC
Spec: 0/20/41 (2/3 ToTH, 3/3 EW)
Buffs: Kings, Might, Mark, Warp Burger, Elixir of Major Agi
Debuffs: Improved Mark, 5 Sunders, Faerie Fire, CoR


Set 2 Gear (Haste mix):
Melee weapon: [Shivering Felspine]
Head: [Duplicitous Guise]
Neck: [Clutch of Demise]
Shoulders: [Gronnstalker's Spaulders]
Back: [Cloak of Fiends]
Chest: [Bladed Chaos Tunic]
Wrist: [Gronnstalker's Bracers]
Hands: [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
Waist: [Gronnstalker's Belt]
Legs: [Leggings of the Immortal Night]
Feet: [Gronnstalker's Boots]
Rings: [Hard Khorium Band] and [Angelista's Revenge]
Trinkets: [Dragonspine Trophy] and [Blackened Naaru Sliver](54 haste, chance on hit proc)
Range weapon: [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas]

[Delicate Crimson Spinel] in everything except for [Jagged Seaspray Emerald] in the boots and the polearm.

Set 2 Total DPS: 2673.695
Hunter DPS: 1732.14
Pet DPS: 219.68
EW DPS: 1155 Agility / 1.6 = 721.875
Avg EW on Mob: 283.77
Rotation: 1:1 steady auto only
Passive Haste: 224
Night Elf, Wind Serpent Pet, No KC
Spec: 7/20/34 (1/3 ToTH, 3/3 EW)
Buffs: Kings, Might, Mark, Warp Burger, Elixir of Major Agi
Debuffs: Improved Mark, 5 Sunders, Faerie Fire, CoR


Adding in Kill Command(which should be fine used in this rotation, right?), another 83.94 dps, puts the difference to about 22 dps. Basically, it's going to depend on exactly how good the proc on the trinket is, whether this gets very close or actually surpasses using a 1:1.5 with the gear listed in set 1.

Also, because I'm using the OO version, I only set it up for a 1:1 steady rotation, rather than a 1:1 priority, which would add a few DPS as well.

 

Sore82

Is the reason behind not using KC in the 1:1.5 rotation due to mana consumption? Or that it will mess up the rotation itself?

 

• Intermission

In my experience, both.

 

SomeRandomIdiot

Glynn...

Try swapping in a Crossbow of Relentless Strikes (the badge xbow) to both gearsets- I hate to say this, but it's BETTER than anything else in the game for both. (as someone who's had BT on farm for over 6 months, that makes me die a little inside, but that's a topic for another thread) I'm getting 1885 Personal DPS with a 1:1.5 rotation, 342.1 Pet DPS (I think you forgot to add those same buffs to your pet...), and 1101 Agility leading to 688.8 Raid DPS for the first gearset (no haste). 1831 Personal DPS with a 3:2 rotation, 352.9 Pet DPS, and 1120 Agility leading to 700 Raid DPS for the 2nd haste gearset.

Normal Gear: 2915.9 DPS
Haste Gear: 2883.9 DPS

Pretty close to the numbers you posted, and while 32 DPS isn't a huge difference it's certainly nothing to scoff at. What really surprised me out of this is the massive dps boost from the badge xbow- going from my current Bristleblitz Striker, it's over an 80 DPS upgrade. It's also more than 30 DPS better than the Golden Bow of Quel'thalas...

 

Glynn

Update: I just ran the numbers and the [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes] is in no way an upgrade. It drops my personal dps by about 80 with set 1, and is a slight downgrade with set 2.
Trying to figure out what's causing the difference.. Are you using the latest stats on the 3 new gronnstalker pieces? I had to update them in the spreadsheet to match what's shown on WOWDB, wowhead, etc. With updated stats, I'm way over hit cap on both, 130 on set 1, and 120 on set 2.

Also, I do have the buffs applied to my pet. I'm pretty sure the difference in pet DPS is not using KC, though. Instead of just using the listed pet DPS, I manually added the normal and special DPS for the pet, ignoring KC.

 

ghungadihn

-Somerandom,
I was inrigued by your post regarding the badge xbow and plugged it into my future badge set. I too noticed an increase but that was before I reran the shot rotation with the faster badge xbow. By my spreadsheet the Legionkiller is the better of the three wepons, I could be wrong though.
1385 bristle
1402 legion
1366 xbow of relentless

 

SomeRandomIdiot

That's odd...
I'm showing 1828 DPS with Legionkiller.
1808 with Bristleblitz Striker. (wow... I might switch back)
1883 with Crossbow of Relentless Strikes.

 

Kabuto

This came about with the ! addition and macro fixes/changes.
Has anyone yet, from Blizzard, acknowledged that this behaviour is intended?

The whole way it work's feels like a bug not anything that was sensibly intended.