Whitefyst

Whether haste increases your DPS or not depends on three factors that I have seen:

1) How much in other stats are you giving up to get the passive haste. As long as the additional DPS from the increased shots per second overcomes the loss in average damage per shot, it is not an unhasted downgrad (but may not be an upgrade depending on other factors).

2) Adapting your rotation correctly to account for the haste. If you are using a rotation optimal for a much slower weapon speed on a faster weapon, then the haste (passive or temporary) is not going to be as effective and may not be worth the loss in stats per 1). For instance, if you are using a 1:1.5 rotation with a 2.8 speed weapon when under Rapid Fire, a lot of the haste from Rapid Fire is lost. However, if you adapt your rotation properly to take into account the haste, then you can see large dividends on the sacrifice in other stats.

3) Finding the haste "sweet spots for your weapon". For different speed weapons, there are different values of minimum haste needed to be able to switch to the next faster rotation and still have room for temporary haste effects to work. For instance, for a 2.8 speed weapon, getting about 20 passive haste allows the 1:1.4 rotation to be outperform the 1:1.5; however, using a haste potion is still optimal for 1:1.4. Getting a little more passive haste to over 30-35 will allow someone with a 2.8 weapon to optimally use a 1:1.4 when unhasted and when under haste drums and a 1:1 when under haste potions or greater haste effects.

Now for your proposed changes (with assuming BoK and approximate 40 AP = 1% crit conversion):

- For the wrists, the differences are 0.64% crit for the Bands of the Celestial Archer versus 13 AP and 27 haste. This is essentially 27 haste versus 0.32% crit. As long as your rotation is not already tight, the 27 haste definitely wins out. Plus, the haste bracers also have more agility for higher EW AP.

- For the shoulders with assuming 2 +8 agi gems in the s2, the differences are 1.3% crit (and +26 agi) versus 24 AP and 37 haste, which is essentially 0.70% crit and 6.5 more EW AP versus 37 haste. This is a more iffy exchange in my opinion and would depend on the situation.

- For the cloaks, the difference is 33 AP, 0.32% crit, 3.2 EW AP, and 13 hit versus 26 haste. Normally, I would say that no way is the loss in stats for this exchange worth it. However, since that 26 haste does put you over into making the 1:1.4 a better rotation for you, it is possible that it is better. However, without looking at this more deeply, I would think you would be better off unhasted without this cloak change and with doing the 1:1.5. Or better yet since you must not need the hit from the cloak anymore to use the badge agi cloak. Check it out for yourself in Cheeky's and let us know which theoretically works out better (just make sure Cheeky's is actually having you do a 1:1.5 when looking at that rotation).

 

Lohegrin

Just a short while ago I basically decided that I wanted to give a survival spec a go just to get a feel for what playing the spec is like. I did some reading and decided to make a few tests. Just fyi, I'm using Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix still, haven't gotten the Archimonde or Illidan bow yet, I have 27 passive haste (putting me at a 2.48 attack speed) and I have the 4xt6 bonus.

I went to Dr. Boom to try the dps of a few rotations and specs.
Basically I tried the 1:1.5, 1:1.4 and 2:1 rotations for both the 7/20/34 spec and the 0/20/41 spec.
From what I gather unless I can get enough haste to make the 7/20/34 slip into a 3:2 rotation when I get IAotH procs the 0/20/41 spec should give me higher dps. My macro does not slip into a 3:2 with IAotH yet I get more dps out of the 7/20/34 spec. Am I likely missing something that I will have in a raid that will make a difference or should I just go with the 7/20/34 spec and my 2:1 rotation?

Neither 1:1.5 nor 1:1.4 provided a higher dps than the 2:1 and both of the prior ones served only to make me run out of mana sooner. Again, is this something likely to change in a raid environment or does the 4xt6 simply make 2:1 superior to 1:1.5 and 1:1.4?

edit:
also, is there some kind of formula to determine how much the raid benefits from my EW debuff?
Something along the lines of "rogues gain X dps per Y AP and warrior gain Z dps per Y AP". Just a general guideline would be awesome.

 

Intie

There is very nice Expose Weakness calculator here: Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Survival Hunter Raid Basics

 

Wunlastri

I'm thinking fo finally dropping macros when I return to SV, but from what I've gathered, KC is a sizable chunk of our dps. What button configuration do people use (standard wow action bars) to hit KC when it's up with minimized clipping.

 

• Crowbite

Don't. The macro isn't to make up for lack of co-ordination but to speed up your auto shot to fit it between spamed Steady Shots. I'd be amazed if you don't see a rather large drop in DPS by choosing to manually weave.

 

Kaetrii

I have kill command attached to my abilities even when I manually weave.

 

Wunlastri

Then I don't know what to do. I had hoped to be comparable to our BM hunters as SV, but I was lucky to pass 1800. Really lucky. My dps averages around 1900 when fighting Brut as BM, and with my gear I should be seeing more. Is it possible to overspam a macro?

 

jomzjomz

Whitefyst - Thanks for the good replies.

Here is my updated armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory

I now have 840 Agility (unbuffed) adn 34.85 crit. Im also using the BBS bow (3.0 speed).

Given these new values, do you still think 20/41 and 1:1.4 would be the best for me?

Im thinking of using this for my 1:1.4 macro:

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot, Arcane Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

plus the lightning breath once i get my windserpent to lv70


By the way, when you manual weave, do you use this macro:

/cast !Auto Shot
/cast Steady Shot
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

then just shoot multi-shot and arcane shot when it is available and ready?

 

Kutak

Showing a WWS would probably be helpful. If you have a very poor group/raid comp, 1900 might be reasonable. I for one doubt you are spamming too much.

 

Cagem

Thanks for the feedback, Whitefyst. I did some further research as follows:

Note that the dps numbers I operate with does not count in pet dps.

When Using a 1:1.5 rotation I get a dps of 1053 using sunfury (With S2 bow it becomes 1067). Then I only use Bindings of Lightning Reflexes as haste item. I confirm that according to the preadsheet I loose dps when equipping Shoulders of lightning reflexes and Crystalweave Cape. The 1:1.5 rotation does not seem to benefit much from additional haste effects at all. using drums with this rotation only provides 5 extra dps.

When using a 1:1.4 rotation, the extra haste from the shoulders and cape will increase dps. When equipping them, the dps turns out as follows:
Bindings of lightning reflexes - 1043 dps
+Shoulders of lightning reflexes - 1059 dps
+Crystalweave Cape - 1066 dps
The extra haste from drums will then give 1084 dps

It seems that using the 1:1.4 rotation with all three haste items (90) is preferred since this seems to benefit better from additional haste effects than the 1:1.5 rotation does.

Now, I went a bit further to see what the best setup could be. I must admit that it never felt right to replace my DST with the hourglass, even though it seemed to work quite well. I therefore did some experiments in Cheeky's spreadsheet to check if the DST could have any benefit with my spec and setup.

Just to recap. My spec is 0/20/41 and the following experiement was done to compare the use of Hourglass and DST without 4x T6. My other trinket is Bloodlust brooch. These tests also compare the different outcomes of using Sunfury bow (2.9) and S2 bow (3.0).

Sunfury and Hourglass (90 HR) (Best setup using hourglass. ref above)
Normal: 1066 dps (1.4 Rotation)
QS: -
DST: -
RF: 1194 (1:1 rotation)

Sunfury bow and DST (90 HR)
Normal: 1054 dps (1.4 Rotation)
QS: -
DST: 1146 (1.3 rotation)
RF: 1181 (1:1 rotation)
RF+DST: 1228 (1:1 rotation)

Sunfury bow and DST (27 HR)
Normal: 1040 dps (1.5 Rotation)
QS: -
DST: 1115 (1.3 rotation)
RF: 1168 (1:1 rotation)
RF+DST: 1249 (1:1 rotation)

S2 bow and DST (90 HR)
Normal: 1037 dps (1.4 Rotation)
QS: -
DST: 1155 (1.3 rotation)
RF: 1167 (1:1 rotation)
RF+DST: 1257 (1:1 rotation)

S2 bow and DST (27 HR)
Normal: 1054 dps (1.5 Rotation)
QS: -
DST: 1133 (1.3 rotation)
RF: 1155 (1:1 rotation)
RF+DST: 1279 (1:1 rotation)

Conclusion
When comparing these, I see that the best setup by far is S2 bow with DST and 27 HR. Using only bindings of lightning reflexes (27 HR) as haste and a 1:1.5 rotation at normal speed, then switching to 1:1.3 rotation when DST procs and 1:1 when I pop Rapid fire. Seems I better get the S3 bow ASAP

It would be great to have some feedback on this even though many may find it not very relevant since it is not at Sunwell progress level.

 

smidefix

Just respecced Surv to boos the guilds raid dps been BM since i hit 70.

Atm i got this gear: The World of Warcraft Armory (I know my trinkets sucks, been doing BM for the trinket too many times and gruul dosnt seem to drop his trinket for me , any other tips about good trinkets?)

I just got Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix last week in kara, and i have around 105 badges atm. What is the best?

1. Wait untill i get 150 badges and get the Xbow from Badges.

2. Enchant and use the Sunfury bow and get Leggings of the Pursuit for badges (100 BoJ) to upgrade my atm crapy pants. This will increase my agility with about 40 unbuffed.

What is the best upgrade for me and for my raidbuffing?

What is the best rotations i can use? Atm i try to use: AS - SS - ARC - AS - SS - AS - SS - MS- AS and so. Is that the best? It uses alot mana so i have hard time to keep me up on mana.

My guild is doing SSC and TK (some bosses down in both, fast progressing). What items should i spend my DKP on first, What is the best Surv gear parts that i should get my hands on?

 

Anal

Don't get the chicken bow for survival.

 

• Crowbite

Something is wrong here. In your gear you should be doing far better as BM on Brut. Find a WWS report or something. Which macros specifically are you using? What does your group comp look like?

 

jomzjomz

given that we are farm on hyjal (2hrs clear) and BT (4.5hrs clear) and 2nd boss in sunwell (brutallus),

how would you spec your windserpent? what resist will you max out?

we only do hyjal / BT and some sunwell.

 

smidefix

Do you mean the Badge bow or Sunfury bow with chicken bow?

Badge bow looks like a bird and Sunfury bow have Phoenix in the name ..

 

Whitefyst

Regardless of what Anal stated, the badge crossbow is a very good option for survival hunters that have not yet gotten bows from Archimonde, Illidian, or Sunwell, when used properly. With its fast weapon speed, if you try to do a 1:1.5 rotation with it, it will do okay, but you will be limiting yourself and not getting the full benefits from it. To most ideally use the badge xbow, you should use a 1:1.4 rotation with ideally at least 20 haste (although it will be fine without the haste).

I use the badge crossbow myself, and when used propery, it is by far superior to any of the other options I have to use (I have the Wolfslayer, Sunfury, Arcanite Steam Pistol, and Legionkiller) and the 14 hit rating is nice too. Sure it does not have agility on it so you lose a little raid DPS from EW, but the amount of personal DPS gained by far surpassess that loss, especially considering that the extra crit rating helps EW uptime as well as many other abilities.

For me with a 0/20/41 spec, compared to Sunfury with its best rotation (1:1.5) and will hand adjusting in the 14 hit rating difference, the badge xbow does about +34 personal DPS with only -3.3 EW AP or about -6.6 raid DPS from EW. All in all this is +27 overall raid DPS. Factor in the additional DPS gain that the 14 hit rating on the xbow allows by being able to substitute a hit item or gems for better DPS item or gems, and the benefit is even greater.

Now with that said, to prioritize your badge purchases, the Leggings of the Pursuit is the better option, but mostly due to the item from which you are upgrading. Comparing the two on my character, it is +24 personal DPS and +10 EW AP or +20 raid EW DPS for +44 raid DPS. Note though that this is on my character with his other gear and spec, verify the result with your gear and spec.

if you use the sunfury, the 1:1.5 is best (AS - SS - ARC - AS - SS - AS - SS - MS - AS - SS - not the SS added from what you listed). With the badge xbow, suggest the 1:1.4 ((AS - SS - ARC - AS - SS - AS - SS - AS - SS - MS - AS - SS - just add an AS-SS before the MS).

As far as prioritzing your DKP, that is a tricky thing to suggest since opportunity plays a part it. Items to look for in no particular order are:
- Void Reaver Greaves from VR if you do not get the badge pants
- Ranger General Chest from Hydross
- Cobra-Lash Boots from Vashj or Star-Strider Boots from Solarian - I prefer to the Solarian ones, especially since they are easy to get
- Ring of Lethality from Hydross (to replace VE ring as hit ring)
- Tsunami Talisman from Leo
- Cape and neck from Kael if lucky to get those (otherwise what you have is fine until BT/MH)
- 2xNetherbanes from A'lar to outdo Legacy and to allow use of two mana oils

For your helm, suggest getting on an arena team and getting the s3 helm. Its the best survival hunter helm until deep into BT.

For a trinket, look into getting Bloodlust Brooch with badges or if have other badge prioritizes the Hourglass of the Unraveller from BM or Berserker's Call from ZA.

Your shoulders, gloves, wrists, and belt are fine through SSC/TK,; however, when you get the opportunity, suggest getting the badge belt, Belt of the Silent Path, since it is a straight upgrade and since the 23 hit rating on it will allow the replacement of an inferior hit item and the badge mail gloves.

As far as T5 goes, the s3 helm, the VR legs, the Hydross chest, the ZA shoulders, and the badge mail gloves are better. Thus, I would priortize getting these other items over any T5 unless you are able to get a piece for cheap. I personally didn't bother much with the T5 set and only got 2 pieces cheap for the 2-set bonus when farming.

If you are having mana problems, suggest the following if you are not doing this already:
- Use Elixir of Major Mageblood as your Guardian elixir (with Major Agility as your Battle elixir)
- Use Superior Mana Oils on your melee weapons (dual weild if have better DPS option so can use two oils)
- Use Fel Mana pots instead of regular mana pots
- Get 3/3 TotH (3/3 EW is higher priority for you ATM though)
- Replace some of your leather pieces with better mail pieces with int (getting the badge legs will help some with another 450 mana)

Also, with your gear, I recommend avoiding a IAotH build. 0/20/41 with Readiness is what I would recommend. Plus, without an IAotH build, if you are really hurting for mana, it does not hurt you as much to switch to Aspect of the Viper if you need to.

 

Whitefyst

I recommend the 1:1.5 rotation with a 3.0 speed weapon unless you have a lot of passive haste, which you do not.

The first macro doesn't really implement the 1:1.5 or 1:1.4 rotation, but is one of the better macros for trying. It will automatically scale to do a pseudo-1:1.5 or 1:1.4 rotation depending on your attack speed (it will even scale more under larger haste effects).

For the second macro, that is what I use (although the 2-part macro some people refer to works as well). For handweaving, I do not just use MS or Arcane whenever they are available. That would be identical to performing the first macro with not correctly implementing the rotation and with adding in human error. Depending on whether you are using the 1:1.5 or 1:1.4, you use the specials at the appropriate time. For the 1:1.5 that is alternating using MS and Arcane shot after every 2 auto-steady combos. Arcane wiill be available for many seconds before you use it again. For the 1:1.4, you add in a third auto-steady before each MS.

 

Anal

Chicken bow = Badge X-Bow

 

jomzjomz

whitefyst - Thanks so much for the help.

Anyway, sometimes i see people use this:

/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

While some people post this:

/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command

Which is correct and what's the difference of each?

/cast Arcane Shot
/castrandom Arcane Shot

/cast Multi-Shot
/castrandom Multi-Shot

/cast[target=pettarget, exists] lightning breath
/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] lightning breath


Also is this a good thing to do?

/castrandom [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command, lightning breath

Or do i separate them as this:

/cast[target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast[target=pettarget, exists] lightning breath

Thanks so much.

Follow up question: When i was a BM hunter, my pet did 30%+ damage. Now that im a survival hunter, what should be my pet damage?

 

Whitefyst

(I am not a macro expert, so I will not even try to answer those questions.)

Concerning your pet DPS, for my character, Cheeky's calculates my WS to do about 16.6% of my damage. I looked through some WWS, and it typically does around 14%. Some of this may be due to inefficiencies in casting KC and/or LB, but I believe that the biggest factor is that my pet dies a decent amount with losing his DPS until he is resummoned. Since I do not have IRP and since my pet does a small percentage of my damage, I almost never resummon my pet in the middle of a boss fight, with the exception being during the kite phase of Supremus. Other loses in DPS are due to sending my pet in and out of battle as necessary to avoid AoE effects on the melee. Another reason is that I usually pull mobs with MD and do not send my pet in until after the tank has started attacking or when I switch targets after killing one, I start up my attacks before sending in my pet.

 

jomzjomz

My Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

My Agility (unbuffed) = 829 (after i socket my shoulders with 2x10agi)
My Crit (unbuffed) = 33.90 %
T6 = 5/8 pcs
Passive haste = 27

Questions:

1) Is it worth speccing to 7/20/34 if i only have 4xT6 buff but I don't have the DST trinket yet? (my passive haste is only 27 - bindings of lightning reflexes).

2) What other gear do you recommend for me to reach the optimal 80 passive haste rating as I've read that this is the target to be optimum in the 7/20/34 build. (I don't think i will be able to get the sunwell gears yet as there are still a long line ahead of me)

 

Windarrow

I've been playing as survival for a few months now. It's also my first character.

Armory: Windarrow

Unbuffed stats(as of new spec):
Agi: 857
AP w/o aoth: 2089
Crit: 36.05%

I've just respecced 5/20/36 to give IAoTH a try, guild TK is this weekend so i'm looking forward to put it to the test. Before this, i've also tried out a few variation in specs for survival, listed as follows.

0/24/37