Long time lurker, first time poster etc. etc.


Now bear with me here, but if I understand the new mechanics for sword spec, would it be advantageous to actually consider the title spec?

Since the OH sword procs trigger a MH yellow/non-glancing attack, I've been wondering if a fist would be a consideration given the higher top end dmg.

Giving up the first in the OH seems "ok" since even if it crits, it is still a 75% dmg hit given the inherent OH dmg penalty.


Just curious if anyone has tossed around any math/theory on this issue; thanks in advance.

Why the assumption that fists inherently have higher damage ranges?

Just for notice you aren't giving up the crit on the offhand. There is nothing called "off-hand crit chance" and "main hand crit chance", there is only melee crit chance. Fist (and Dagger) specialization checks the weapon in your Main hand, if it corresponds with either of the two specializations you get 5% crit on both hands regardless of your off-hand.

MM thats kinda of nice, 5% crit and the % to extra attack, but only on the one weapon... I am not sure the extra points are really available though, given what else you can get with them... but I dont raid on a rogue, so I don't know. You could go something like this, althought that spec is really rough. Raw theorycraft on it would make my head spin, but my earliest guess is that it simply is not worth the additional crit or top end yellow damage to sink 5 points into the spec.

I don't see why there wouldn't be MH crit and OH crit. They are capable of separating weapon skill (and thus, crit/miss/-dodge/-parry) between MH and OH. As well as +weapon damage buffs. They also separated +3% hit from the scope to be ranged only.

I'm rather certain that the weapon specs application to each hand was tested and results posted in a thread on these forums stating that each hand is evaluated independently. So mace spec affects only hands with maces in them, and so on. I'll look.

Incorrect. See Rogue DPS Spreadsheet post 838.

I was in a bit of a hurry earlier; I'll detail some items.

As for "assuming" fists have higher damage ranges; I stated it has higher top-end which for now is what I am interested in (using glad weaps as a baseline comparison).

For clarity sake, I was mentioning the difference in damage between a fist-spec offhand crit hitting (which would still be 75% of normal dmg hit due to 50% OH penalty+25% talent bonus) as well as a lower overall hit being as it will be a faster weapon AND the sword spec proccing an extra hit off the MH.

Just comparing OH "procs" (either 5% crit with fist/dagger or extra attack off MH dmg tables with SSpec), it would appear the sword spec OH proc would be superior given the higher dmg range the MH carries (due to wpn speed, no OH penalty, not subject to glancing blows).

Hence the original pondering if using fist MH, Glad sword (or latro's etc. etc.) OH would infact be a viable consideration - something like:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

With a pair of PVP weapons (fist main slicer off)that should actually work out pretty well. The spreadsheet is ambagious about it. Shows Fist/Sword > Sword/Sword for PVP weapons slightly, but it also defaults to a different attack cycle. So not concrete. Either way, it's close enough that if you are really gung ho for the higher top end, you will not be gimping yourself by going fist over sword MH. Though I'd probably end up with 2 points in vile poisons instead of kick(unless worried about PVP).

Grim: You caught me, I fell in love with imp. kick and can't seem to give it up for it's PVP huggability (it's snuggly soft!). The build above lets me hit arena and SSC w/o having to cash out on respecs every week. While I wish I had a way to get more concrete information on this, I might give it a try once season two hits and we see if any new Glad weaps come up for purchase.

And why exactly would you care for the top end damage rather than the average damage of the weapon?

I've in fact been playing the titled spec since the patch came out. I was formerly fist spec, more than happy with it, but with the sword spec changes in the patch, a fist/sword hybrid build just seemed too good not to try. Result:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...issan&n=Mahama

You give up nothing but fillers really as far as talent points go, so there's no problems there, and therefore no real way that I can think of that would make a pure fist build superior (Unless you can somehow come to the conclusion that 5% chance to crit on the *off-hand* is better than an extra *main-hand* attack). As far as its viability compared to a pure sword build goes however, that might take a bit more looking into.

Anyway, highly recommend it. I just wish I had've known Arena Season 2 was coming up so soon, I would've held off buying the off-hand sword for a while.

an interesting idea, but it seems like past tempest keep there's 0 fist itemization

Mahama's build is exactly what I'm using at the moment with a Big Bad Wolf's Paw and Latro's. I changed from 19/42 sword spec with the Aldor sword. It ekes out a tiny bit more use from the 5 points in Lethality than a regular sword spec, too. I'll most likely go back to a standard sword spec if/when Spiteblade drops, but where I am gear-wise I like it.

Do any of you Fist/Sword hybrids have any WWS parses showing your damage output with these specs?

While Macespec's weaponskill is not that awful, oh gladiator/latro's will probably provide better dps.
I'd go with something like this
4 points into Imp Poison or Vile Poison depending on preference.

So given the opportunity to choose between a sword and a fist with the same speed, stats and average damage, why would you go with the fist?
I can't really see how the 5% chance to crit on your MH swings and styles could outweigh sword spec on the respective attacks.
Looking for illumination here

You'd have to spend 5 extra talentpoints though.. i'm not sure if i'd do that.
personally i'd stick with 2 swords. (since the mainhand proc also ignores glancing, while the fist wouldn't)

Using 2x Gladiator's currently, with mongoose. and i can't say i see much worth complaining about.

AFAIK the white attacks still use the one roll system and thus the 5% crit from fist spec would "eat" hits. Simply put, they can't glance.

Hate to bring up an old question, but can anyone input to this:
Given that your Sword Specced and wielding a Sword in your OH at all times, which would be the better combination towards optimal dps output in a sustained PVE environment?

[Dragonstrike] (0 points in Macespec, but useful for haste + topend dmg)
[Merciless Gladiator's Right Ripper] (Specced Fist + swords)
[Talon of Azshara] (Pure sword spec)

Each wielding [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] as the OH weapon, with Sword spec as a default spec.

It's a bit late

can anyone verify the 5% crit "aura" coming from Fist spec?

also, I cant decide whether i should wait for Talon of Azshara to drop so i can pair it up with my offhand Merciless. OR should i just purchase the MH Merciless, yet according to the DPS charts, Talon is still better regardless of the DPS variation of the two weapons. Talon is slower thus has more high end damage, and it has more hit rating than the Merciless.

OR should i just consider this new Fist/Sword Spec?

With dual sword spec, i also have 5% less glancing attacks than most melee classes (~20% vs 25%).

I seem to recall that they fixed the "aura" thing though, so the bonus crit only applies to the offhand.
It does warrant some testing though, and i hope they fix the Merciless offhand fist weapon soon. 1.8 sec attack speed makes it worse than the Season 1 version.