can anyone verify the 5% crit "aura" coming from Fist spec?
No, no one can, because it's not true. Please read the entire thread before posting, it's not very long, and the answer has already been posted with a link to proof.
Would anyone like to input there own experiences/expertise on my previous question regarding weapon combinations?
Given that your Sword Specced and wielding a Sword in your OH at all times, which would be the better combination towards optimal dps output in a sustained PVE environment?
Sword/sword is always the optimal spec. After that, Fist/sword in your particular configuration will yield more DPS than mace/sword, even with the haste proc and higher damage range, because of the crit and speed of the fist weapon. The mace is nice, and will do good DPS, but will end up somewhere around 10 DPS lower than the fist/sword combo, and 15-20 DPS lower than Talon/MGQ
23:40:55> [Illidan Stormrage's] [Shear] was blocked by [Castille].
Hmm, also with the future sword spec nurf (cannot proc another sword spec within a proc etc, correct me if i'm wrong), this might change the end result?
Ruling out the Mace MH as i stated in my previous post, the logical winner as far as weapon combination would be
The change from yellow back to white again is/was pretty big, but I still don't think it's big enough to overrule the added bonus of an extra attack.. Granted, not being able to proc WF off extra attacks is really going to level the playing field. However, the really big thing with splitting your builds is that you take away from things like Vile Poisons that can help DPS a bit more than a split weapons build.
I think MGR/MGQ setup might beat MGS/MGQ on things like Hydross/VR where the mob is poison immune, but it's probably going to be a wash overall.
23:40:55> [Illidan Stormrage's] [Shear] was blocked by [Castille].
Summary: MH Fist, OH Sword is slightly better than dual sword.
I have read it, and even referenced it, but after doing much much more reading, others have me believing the opposite (can't reference to any posts atm). Aside from MH Fist or Sword, have you considered [Dragonstrike] as a viable MH? With zero points into Mace specialization, used for the high DMG range + Haste proc, as haste is pretty useful for rogues)
I have read it, and even referenced it, but after doing much much more reading, others have me believing the opposite (can't reference to any posts atm). Aside from MH Fist or Sword, have you considered [Dragonstrike] as a viable MH? With zero points into Mace specialization, used for the high DMG range + Haste proc, as haste is pretty useful for rogues)
I think it would boil down to wether the haste proc on that mace is worth keeping over the stat bonus + 5% crit gained from a S2 fist weapon, as well as weapon expertise.
Is the Dragonstrike set at 1 PPM?
Edit: whoops, looks like that Dragonstrike also has a better average damage then the S2 weapon.
Heh yea, its hard because with the dragonstrike my crits can score pretty high numbers, but the Fist is faster and has +5% crit from spec so its a hard choice. Haste proc works wonders especially with double mongoose + WF on MH , but then again fist seems like it would do more DMG in a sustained PVE fight logically
Don't under-estimate the 10 hit, 19crit and 30-some AP on Merc. Glad. Right Ripper. Also, Weapon Skill is an amazing thing to have. It's +hit and -dodge. Win-Win.
As for swords vs fists MH.. would you rather have your SS crit 5% more, or proc a white swing 5% of the time? I realize for equal dmg attacks, 5% extra change to attack is better, but SS is a large chunk of the number of swings you get with MH, and having that Crit would be more dmg than having it swing an extra white attack. Look at the math, if you find something vastly wrong, by all means bring it up.
Don't under-estimate the 10 hit, 19crit and 30-some AP on Merc. Glad. Right Ripper. Also, Weapon Skill is an amazing thing to have. It's +hit and -dodge. Win-Win.
As for swords vs fists MH.. would you rather have your SS crit 5% more, or proc a white swing 5% of the time? I realize for equal dmg attacks, 5% extra change to attack is better, but SS is a large chunk of the number of swings you get with MH, and having that Crit would be more dmg than having it swing an extra white attack. Look at the math, if you find something vastly wrong, by all means bring it up.
i recently bought a MGR over MGS, offhand MGQ. loving the 5% crit so far, totaling over 28% crit now, and thats not even raid buffed. i thought that if the sword spec procs on your offhand sword, your mainhand will swing again, apparently looks like its not the case, but still. 5% crit is gg.
i thought that if the sword spec procs on your offhand sword, your mainhand will swing again, apparently looks like its not the case, but still. 5% crit is gg.
Erm.. Look at your Combat Log. OH sword spec's proc MH swings.
I'm using Merc. Glad. R.R. (2.6 spd) and Merc. Glad Quickblade (1.5 spd).
*SnD*
7/22 00:24:52.921 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
7/22 00:24:52.921 You hit Withered Bog Lord for 167. <-- OH swing that proc'd SS
7/22 00:24:53.109 You hit Withered Bog Lord for 358. <-- MH extra swing
7/22 00:24:53.109 You crit Withered Bog Lord for 819. <-- next MH attack (good timing!)
*DST Proc*
7/22 00:24:55.609 You hit Withered Bog Lord for 167. <-- OH
7/22 00:24:56.187 You hit Withered Bog Lord for 437. <-- MH
7/22 00:24:56.468 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
7/22 00:24:56.468 You hit Withered Bog Lord for 154. <-- OH (0.9 after previous)
7/22 00:24:56.625 You crit Withered Bog Lord for 870. <-- MH (proc'd.. only 0.5 sec after first)
7/22 00:24:56.625 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency. (from same attack that got SS)
7/22 00:24:57.250 You crit Withered Bog Lord for 323. <-- next OH (0.8 after previous)
7/22 00:24:57.468 Withered Bog Lord attacks. You parry.
7/22 00:24:57.843 You crit Withered Bog Lord for 889. <-- MH (1.7 sec after first, 1.2 after SS proc)
------------
*SnD*
*Haste Meta*
*DST*
7/22 00:25:19.968 You hit Withered Giant for 155. <-- first OH hit
7/22 00:25:19.984 Cheap Shot fades from Withered Giant.
7/22 00:25:20.578 Withered Giant attacks. You dodge.
7/22 00:25:20.578 You hit Withered Giant for 363. <-- first MH hit
7/22 00:25:20.765 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
7/22 00:25:20.765 You hit Withered Giant for 165. <-- OH attack proc'd SS (0.8 sec after first)
7/22 00:25:20.781 You hit Withered Giant for 411. <-- MH swing from SS (0.2 after first)
7/22 00:25:21.375 You hit Withered Giant for 175. <-- OH attack (0.6 after 2nd.. yay lag)
7/22 00:25:21.796 You crit Withered Giant for 900. <-- MH attack (1.25 after first)
7/22 00:25:22.171 You hit Withered Giant for 168. <-- OH attack (0.8 after 3rd)
------------
*DST*
7/22 00:29:37.578 You crit Withered Giant for 833. <-- MH
7/22 00:29:37.578 You hit Withered Giant for 191. <-- OH
7/22 00:29:37.968 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency. <-- CP from first OH
7/22 00:29:38.671 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
7/22 00:29:38.671 You crit Withered Giant for 337. <-- OH that triggered SS (1.1 after first OH)
7/22 00:29:38.671 You hit Withered Giant for 388. <-- MH extra swing
7/22 00:29:38.890 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
7/22 00:29:39.484 You hit Withered Giant for 397. <-- next MH swing, 1.9 after first
------------
*Haste Meta*
7/22 00:26:50.140 You crit Withered Giant for 336. <-- OH
7/22 00:26:51.218 You crit Withered Giant for 399. <-- OH (1.1 after previous)
7/22 00:26:51.390 You hit Withered Giant for 446. <-- MH
7/22 00:26:52.625 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
7/22 00:26:52.625 You hit Withered Giant for 196. <-- OH (1.4 after previous - proc'd SS)
7/22 00:26:52.625 You crit Withered Giant for 887. <-- MH SS proc (1.25 after previous)
7/22 00:26:53.640 You crit Withered Giant for 801. <-- MH (2.25 after first, 1.0 after SS proc)
7/22 00:26:53.812 You hit Withered Giant for 189. <-- OH (1.2 after previous)
Your SS swings will proc sword hits and can be lower than a crit SS, yes, but you can also crit your SS anyway (Buffed most rogues probably have 30%ish crit) so your relative gain is less than 5% already, and then your sword spec procs can crit as well, making the gain higher even. Say I crit SS for 2300 and then crit a sword spec proc off of it for 1300 (Or heck, even a noncrit for 800 or 900), that's a pretty substantial boost overj ust getting the crit SS. Either way, procs from SS are fairly infrequent in the grand scheme of things (Look at how many specials you get off in a typical WWS).
Erm.. Look at your Combat Log. OH sword spec's proc MH swings.
I'm using Merc. Glad. R.R. (2.6 spd) and Merc. Glad Quickblade (1.5 spd).
*SnD*
7/22 00:24:52.921 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
7/22 00:24:52.921 You hit Withered Bog Lord for 167. <-- OH swing that proc'd SS
7/22 00:24:53.109 You hit Withered Bog Lord for 358. <-- MH extra swing
7/22 00:24:53.109 You crit Withered Bog Lord for 819. <-- next MH attack (good timing!)
*DST Proc*
7/22 00:24:55.609 You hit Withered Bog Lord for 167. <-- OH
7/22 00:24:56.187 You hit Withered Bog Lord for 437. <-- MH
7/22 00:24:56.468 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
7/22 00:24:56.468 You hit Withered Bog Lord for 154. <-- OH (0.9 after previous)
7/22 00:24:56.625 You crit Withered Bog Lord for 870. <-- MH (proc'd.. only 0.5 sec after first)
7/22 00:24:56.625 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency. (from same attack that got SS)
7/22 00:24:57.250 You crit Withered Bog Lord for 323. <-- next OH (0.8 after previous)
7/22 00:24:57.468 Withered Bog Lord attacks. You parry.
7/22 00:24:57.843 You crit Withered Bog Lord for 889. <-- MH (1.7 sec after first, 1.2 after SS proc)
------------
*SnD*
*Haste Meta*
*DST*
7/22 00:25:19.968 You hit Withered Giant for 155. <-- first OH hit
7/22 00:25:19.984 Cheap Shot fades from Withered Giant.
7/22 00:25:20.578 Withered Giant attacks. You dodge.
7/22 00:25:20.578 You hit Withered Giant for 363. <-- first MH hit
7/22 00:25:20.765 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
7/22 00:25:20.765 You hit Withered Giant for 165. <-- OH attack proc'd SS (0.8 sec after first)
7/22 00:25:20.781 You hit Withered Giant for 411. <-- MH swing from SS (0.2 after first)
7/22 00:25:21.375 You hit Withered Giant for 175. <-- OH attack (0.6 after 2nd.. yay lag)
7/22 00:25:21.796 You crit Withered Giant for 900. <-- MH attack (1.25 after first)
7/22 00:25:22.171 You hit Withered Giant for 168. <-- OH attack (0.8 after 3rd)
------------
*DST*
7/22 00:29:37.578 You crit Withered Giant for 833. <-- MH
7/22 00:29:37.578 You hit Withered Giant for 191. <-- OH
7/22 00:29:37.968 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency. <-- CP from first OH
7/22 00:29:38.671 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
7/22 00:29:38.671 You crit Withered Giant for 337. <-- OH that triggered SS (1.1 after first OH)
7/22 00:29:38.671 You hit Withered Giant for 388. <-- MH extra swing
7/22 00:29:38.890 You gain 15 Energy from Combat Potency.
7/22 00:29:39.484 You hit Withered Giant for 397. <-- next MH swing, 1.9 after first
------------
*Haste Meta*
7/22 00:26:50.140 You crit Withered Giant for 336. <-- OH
7/22 00:26:51.218 You crit Withered Giant for 399. <-- OH (1.1 after previous)
7/22 00:26:51.390 You hit Withered Giant for 446. <-- MH
7/22 00:26:52.625 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
7/22 00:26:52.625 You hit Withered Giant for 196. <-- OH (1.4 after previous - proc'd SS)
7/22 00:26:52.625 You crit Withered Giant for 887. <-- MH SS proc (1.25 after previous)
7/22 00:26:53.640 You crit Withered Giant for 801. <-- MH (2.25 after first, 1.0 after SS proc)
7/22 00:26:53.812 You hit Withered Giant for 189. <-- OH (1.2 after previous)
hmm so i misread the combat log. i thought that when i got a low damage after it said "you gain 1 extra attack" that meant the immediate extra attack. thanks for the info. btw, i do have MH MGR and OH MGQ.
Do we have any confirmation whether or not in 2.2:
A) OH sword spec still procs a MH attack
and
B) Sword spec won't proc windfury (we can assume sword spec proc sword spec is out).
I'm actually very interested in this, as I'm in the position to buy a S2 MH a week from Tuesday, and had been planning on the sword. I'm actually quite curious about the dual weapon spec, and very interested in giving it a try, but at 500 pts a week (roughly) I don't want to waste the 2650 on the Ripper to find out that sword spec still procs windfury, or the OH sword spec procs an OH attack.
Do we have any confirmation whether or not in 2.2:
A) OH sword spec still procs a MH attack
and
B) Sword spec won't proc windfury (we can assume sword spec proc sword spec is out).
I'm actually very interested in this, as I'm in the position to buy a S2 MH a week from Tuesday, and had been planning on the sword. I'm actually quite curious about the dual weapon spec, and very interested in giving it a try, but at 500 pts a week (roughly) I don't want to waste the 2650 on the Ripper to find out that sword spec still procs windfury, or the OH sword spec procs an OH attack.
A: For sure OH sword spec still procs a MH attack, as ive tested it currently and recently in PTR.
B: I am not sure nor have i tested
While the idea is interesting, i don't immediately see how it could work to produce more raid DPS. I currently use This spec.
The only "filler" talents that i might replace are 1% dodge, 2/2 improved sprint, and maybe 2/2 vitality.
Even so, according to the Spreadsheet : dual sword still seems to come out on top.
What sort of spec would you use for a fist+sword combo?
If it's something like : WorldofWarcraft.com - Talent Calculator
Then you lose out vile poisons, and 2/2 vitality. Those 2 talents actually add quite a bit of DPS.
Last edited by Zurgat : 07/23/07 at 9:26 AM.
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While the idea is interesting, i don't immediately see how it could work to produce more raid DPS. I currently use This spec.
The only "filler" talents that i might replace are 1% dodge, 2/2 improved sprint, and maybe 2/2 vitality.
Even so, according to the Spreadsheet : dual sword still seems to come out on top.
What sort of spec would you use for a fist+sword combo?
If it's something like : WorldofWarcraft.com - Talent Calculator
Then you lose out vile poisons, and 2/2 vitality. Those 2 talents actually add quite a bit of DPS.
It keeps vitality, drops Imp Evisc altogether, and really only misses out on poison damage (and Imp Kick, from your build, as it is more PvP oriented). I think the main question is if the sword spec change applies only to sword spec (can't proc itself again), or if it applies to windfury as well.
.... but SS is a large chunk of the number of swings you get with MH
SS is, at most, 1/3rd of the number of swings you get with the MH - that's with a 2.8 or 2.9 speed weapon, at 2.6 speed w/ SnD you're swinging at 1.89 speed constantly, and quite a bit less with other haste effects.
With a 2.6 speed weapon, SnD brings it to 2.0 spd. Yes, with a few more haste items going such as DST, TSD, etc I'm sure you could average 1.8 spd or so. With combat Potency and all that haste, your SS is going about every 3-3.1 seconds.
60 / 1.8 = 33.33 swings per minute
60 / 3.1 = 19.35 swings per minute
33 + 19 = 52 swings
19 / 52 = 36%.
So umm.. yea, I'd say it IS a large chunk of your damage. Don't get me wrong, 5% extra attack IS better than 5% more crit (except at exceedingly low hit/crit rates). However, that assumes the swing that procs the extra attack is a white attack (same damage). Remeber that talent Lethality? An extra 30% damage to yellow crits. So instead of having an 800 dmg SS hit, you end up with an 1800 SS dmg crit. Compare that to a 400 dmg white hit turning into a 400 dmg hit + 800 dmg crit... asuming the SS proc crits!
I did the math, look it over if you want. The extra damage you get from Sword spec is nearly equally divided between MH and OH swings (since you get roughly an equivalent number of each). Fist spec you get the bulk of the bonus coming from your MH attacks. Remember, my math assumed a 2.6 spd MH and 1.5spd OH. My spec only gets BETTER with a faster OH and slower MH.
Last but not least.. these points are nit-picking to the highest degree. Argueing over the last 1% of dmg done is kinda of trivial.. the actual execution of combo point cycles will more than overcome the differences from Sword/Sword vs Fist/Sword. Not to mention, going from a 97.5 dps MH Fist to a 100.6 dps MH Sword will easily be superior, even if you kept fist spec and didn't pick up Vile Poisons.
So instead of having an 800 dmg SS hit, you end up with an 1800 SS dmg crit. Compare that to a 400 dmg white hit turning into a 400 dmg hit + 800 dmg crit... asuming the SS proc crits!
You're comparing a SS hit getting bumped up to a crit because of fist spec with a white hit proccing sword spec. Big surprise, the one with the yellow attack does more damage. How about:
Fist: 800 SS -> 1800 SS
Sword: 800 SS -> 800 SS + 600 SwordSpec Hit (Max rank sinister strike only adds 98 damage, then take off 10% for SA and 6% for aggression)
also, if SwSp crits: 800 SS -> 800 SS + 1200 SwordSpec Crit
Assuming 30% crit, that makes sword spec worth:
800 SS -> 800 SS + 780 SwordSpec = 1580 Total
So yes, for yellow damage the Fist Spec is better, but not by the > 600 you were implying.
Originally Posted by Latito
The extra damage you get from Sword spec is nearly equally divided between MH and OH swings (since you get roughly an equivalent number of each).
Not sure exactly what you mean here, the whole point of the thread is that OH SwordSpec procs give you an extra MH attack, so essentially all the extra damage from SwordSpec is MH swings. Correct me if I'm just misreading that.
Edit: Agreed on the nitpicking thing, but that's what these forums are all about isn't it?
With a 2.6 speed weapon, SnD brings it to 2.0 spd. Yes, with a few more haste items going such as DST, TSD, etc I'm sure you could average 1.8 spd or so. With combat Potency and all that haste, your SS is going about every 3-3.1 seconds.
60 / 1.8 = 33.33 swings per minute
60 / 3.1 = 19.35 swings per minute
33 + 19 = 52 swings
19 / 52 = 36%.
So umm.. yea, I'd say it IS a large chunk of your damage. Don't get me wrong, 5% extra attack IS better than 5% more crit (except at exceedingly low hit/crit rates). However, that assumes the swing that procs the extra attack is a white attack (same damage). Remeber that talent Lethality? An extra 30% damage to yellow crits. So instead of having an 800 dmg SS hit, you end up with an 1800 SS dmg crit. Compare that to a 400 dmg white hit turning into a 400 dmg hit + 800 dmg crit... asuming the SS proc crits!
I did the math, look it over if you want. The extra damage you get from Sword spec is nearly equally divided between MH and OH swings (since you get roughly an equivalent number of each). Fist spec you get the bulk of the bonus coming from your MH attacks. Remember, my math assumed a 2.6 spd MH and 1.5spd OH. My spec only gets BETTER with a faster OH and slower MH.
Last but not least.. these points are nit-picking to the highest degree. Argueing over the last 1% of dmg done is kinda of trivial.. the actual execution of combo point cycles will more than overcome the differences from Sword/Sword vs Fist/Sword. Not to mention, going from a 97.5 dps MH Fist to a 100.6 dps MH Sword will easily be superior, even if you kept fist spec and didn't pick up Vile Poisons.
Uh, yeah, but, um.. you won't have matching weapons on your character screen. (also read as: Fair enough, good points).
I -do- think that this is an unintended interaction between the specs - but hey, sword spec proccing windfury proccing sword spec (etc) was unintended but hilarious while it worked.
Not sure exactly what you mean here, the whole point of the thread is that OH SwordSpec procs give you an extra MH attack, so essentially all the extra damage from SwordSpec is MH swings. Correct me if I'm just misreading that.
Edit: Agreed on the nitpicking thing, but that's what these forums are all about isn't it?
What I meant, and I'm quite sure you recognize this as well, is that the damage you dish out from sword spec is based on MH swings, but the proc chance is equally split (if not biased to OH) between both weapons. Thus if you improve your MH's damage and get maintain a solid 50% of the sword spec procs, you would come out ahead.
And yea.. to put things into perspective.. say you average ~20 sinister strikes a minute, thats 1 per minute proc'ing Sword spec. You get an extra ~220 dmg (using your numbers!) by going fist instead of sword. Yep.. 220 dmg a minute. Then you lose an equally small bit of dmg on the ~2 times you proc SS vs increased crit with white MH swings. As for the offhand, well I suppose out of the 3 OH sword spec procs a minute we each get, mine would have a 5% higher chance to crit, or roughly 1 every 6-7 minutes, which would be ~600 more dmg.
Now factor in we're probably both in the 1200-1300 dps range on any fight we don't have to move around much on, and those few hundred dmg a minute gets absorbed by "I got 2 more AP!" type stuff pretty damn fast. Ahh.. nit-picking is fun.
Uh, yeah, but, um.. you won't have matching weapons on your character screen. (also read as: Fair enough, good points).
I -do- think that this is an unintended interaction between the specs - but hey, sword spec proccing windfury proccing sword spec (etc) was unintended but hilarious while it worked.
True, the matching element is lost. I do get to sport a unique look though! :P
And yea, perhaps it is unintended (a change in WoW v4.8 might just prove that!).. oh well, I guess I'll switch to a dual-sword or back to CB Daggers at that point, whatever the new nit-picky champion is. SS/WF chain procs are just annoying though I find. Nearly wiped a raid with that today even, waited 'till tank had 3k threat and got a white crit, ss crit, WF hit, extra attack crit all of the bat, followed by another SS crit one GCD later before I'd noticed the dmg .. tank without aggro = no rage = no threat = dps gunna die. Vanish ftw.
07/19/07, 11:49 AM
, but then again fist seems like it would do more DMG in a sustained PVE fight logically
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