Yeah, I'm pretty sure we agree that in a vacuum, Fist/Sword hybrid comes out slightly ahead of Sword/Sword, just because of the mechanics of Sword Spec (biggest benefit comes from OH proccing MH attacks, which still happens), I'm wondering if it's enough of an advantage to overcome the lost dps from Imp/Vile Poisons that you have to drop to make room for the extra 5 points in Combat.


And as for the Chain Procs thing, I feel your pain. Since raid bosses have been bastiches and Arena points are slow coming, I'm rolling with Blinkstrike atm. It's kinda funny seeing the 5x proc off one swing (something like Blink->SS->WF->Blink->WF chain)...my SCT gets spammed with "Extra Attack!" all the time.

I rolled with Blinkstrike till I got my S2 MH - let me tell you you're in for a very happy upgrade. I looked back over all the MH swords I've owned over the years, since thrash blade (to Dal'Rend MH, to Brut Blade, CTS, AQR, Blinkstrike, S2 MH) ... and Blinkstrike->S2 was the biggest upgrade by FAR (and VERY noticable).

i gave fist/sword spec a shot, looked through my combat log and most of the sword proc damage were quite small. then i checked out my sws and it shows sword procs contributing only 1.5% of my damage, which is quite disappointing.

link to sws breakdown:
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p...tswordspec.jpg

I just posted this on another section of this site but this may be a more relevant place to mention it........

"On the regular rogue forums it appears to be blasphemy to suggest that fist spec with a dagger OH could rival pure sword spec using dual swords for pve DPS. However, it does appear to me from the spreadsheet that fist/dagger and an identical talent spec (20/41 with 4 points in Imp Poisons) OTHER than in relation to weapon specialisation results in fist/dagger coming out at pretty much exactly the same DPS as sword/sword (sometimes a little more - sometimes a little less depending on gear).

I think what happens is that as one's gear gets towards the top end and if you factor in raid buffs swords come out more favourably - but towards the middle to lower end fists are better. It seems to me that gear placing you at around the 750 DPS unbuffed mark with 308+hit (that is with boss mob armour on) yeilds more from fist/dagger but as you go above that swords move incrementally ahead (raid buffed on 750 base results in about 1170 with the most common buffs and swords are a mere 5.5 DPS ahead then).

Can this be right? Does the spreadsheet factor in the benefits of sword spec fully? It has been pointed out (somewhat bluntly) to me that swords are just plain better full stop but as far as i can see (a) they are not better in the low - mid range of gear - they are worse (b) they are only very fractionally better using insanely good gear. Keeping in mind fists give +crit for better pvp viability and burst i've concluded that fist/dagger is pretty nice.

Finally - a lot of people mention dual specialisation fist/sword but it has become apparent to me that you are better off avoiding double specialisation and putting the extra points into poisons.........but the point of this post really is to ask if the spreadsheet factors in the benefits of sword spec in a way that people recognise to truly reflect the benefits of that spec."

Fist/dagger doesn't do anything that fist/fist doesn't do, except for maybe reduce your offhand speed very slightly. For 5 talent points, that's not really worth it.

The weapon specialization auras only apply to a hand that you have that weapon in. You will not gain 10% crit by using fist/dagger with both specs. You might know that already, but that's really the only way I could see thinking that fist/dagger will come out ahead of fist/fist let alone fist/sword ... maybe I'm missing something. It's entirely possible.

the only thing that could push fist/dagger is that it is relying on the faster daggers in the game. with equivalent gear i don't think sword/sword would loose to fist/dagger. In reality fist/dagger would just outperform some pure swords just based off better weapons.

edit: spreadsheet agrees with me (just put in pure merc swords vs merc fist/dagger and I loose about 16-17 unbuffed dps

Here are some recent WWS parses to help others pondering the fist/sword spec.

WWS VR
WWS Leo
WWS FLK
WWS Mag

I'm 16/45, Shinta and Volcom are both 19/42. For most of those I was potted/flasked, pretty sure they were as well.

The difference isn't very large in either direction, yet I can't help but feel I should be putting out better numbers. I need to sit down with the data to confirm/deny that, but sadly I've needed to work while at work lately.

Hope these help.

I think there are a few things to keep in perspective when comparing Fist/Sword vs Sword/Sword.

First off, a better weapon is a better weapon. I'd rather use a 100 dps sword than a 97 dps Fist. You can only effectively compare the specs when comparing weapons with identical dps and speed. Damage range isn't an issue over the long-run (Arena weaps..).

Secondly, the difference between the two is quite trival. Remember, aside from that 5%.. your dps is unaffected by sword vs fist. The 5% extra swing is better when comparing white swings, the 5% extra crit is better on the sinister strikes. The two nearly cancel each other out. Only at a few points in your weapon itemization should you consider spec more than just "whats the best weapon I have [available]."


On the topic on Fist/Dagger.. here's a few things to remmber:
- Specing into daggers would be pointless. The only time you want to take 5/5 in a specialization when you only carry that type in your OH is for swords, since it produces MH swings. Extra crits on your already gimped OH are pathetic dps increases.
- There is are only 1 point in itemization where OH dagger, MH fist/sword make sense:
Searing Sunblade. The extra energy regen from it compared to a fist is worth losing OH crits if you go Fist/Dagger. If you had a MH sword, I'd still probably go Latro's over Searing Sunblade.

Either way, those points are kind of useless now, considering S2 weapons are available. If you are reading these forums, you pass the "I'm not completely lazy" check required to get S2 weapons.

Im just wondering so what someone is saying that the skill you choose is for the main hand only ? As somone was saying u use the 5% crit from Fist and get it for your sword also. Is that true for all the skills ?

Thought it check for each hand seperatly.

Umm, no. Weapon Specializations only affect weapons of that type, irregardless of which hand you wield them in. If you have Fist spec only, only your fist weapons will get 5% more crit. If you have Fist spec AND sword spec, your MH attacks (MH white, SS, Evis, etc) will have a 5% higher crit, and your OH attacks (OH white, shiv, etc) will have a 5% change to proc an extra swing. This threat is essentially about the broken mechanic in which OH sword spec swings proc MH attacks, thus opening the idea of a "MH Fist, OH Sword" build.

Note: Your character info screen will show the crit rate of your MH, regardless of wether or not your OH is the same or a different crit rate.

Do the extra swings due to sword spec in this kind of build use the swords crit rate or the fist crit rate?

I still did not found any totally convincing data about whether offhand sword spec proccs still trigger an additional main hand hit or not. Does anyone have a Link? I'm sure some well experienced tester must have a clear result.

[Rogue] Mechanics Testing Thread

Thank you

I'm considering testing a mace/sword spec. Before you all laugh at me, hear me out! Simply put, even after the upcoming nerf, the BS mace will continue to be the best weapon I have access to for a very long time. Even the second rank doesn't get replaced until BT, and I should be able to craft the final tier soon.

Right now I'm combat maces with the S2 offhand. I have Latro's in the bank, and can save up for the S2 offhand sword over the next few weeks. Going to mace/sword would entail shaving a few points from elsewhere in my build to get sword spec.

Existing build is here
The Armory

The recent weapon skill threads have found that the first 5 weaponskill are worth much more than the subsequent 5. That suggests to me that I only need to find 6 points (5/5 sword spec and 1/2 Weapon expertise) rather than 7. Does that sound right? I can also take two of the 5 points out of mace spec, since that still leaves me with +6 skill and gives maximum bang for buck.

That would give me something like this
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator

Am I up the wrong tree, and would maxing maces / W.Ex be better than Vile Poisons? At the moment I have maxed vile poisons and am finding deadly poison to be a significant part of my DPS, about 6% or so. Dropping 3 points from it to max out maces and W.Ex would drop that down by about 0.5% while gaining me about 0.5% chance to hit. That's pretty much a wash, except that I can make up the hit% from equipment and gems.

Vile poisons also helps more in trash fights, since it makes it viable to use Envenom as a "final finisher" on short fights. On longer fights the only finishers used are s'n'd and Rupture anyway. If I don't have the points in vile poisons, I'd be unhappy without putting points into improved Eviscerate, which then have to come from somewhere else, and so on.

Any thoughts?

Well you have to consider that most likely weapon skill also reduces your dodge rate, which otherwise cannot be reduced at all (except for finishing moves).
Currently I *suspect* it to be 0.1% per weapon skill for white attacks, so you'd be losing 0.4% for your main hand and 0.5% "hit" (dodge is basically the same as miss in terms of DPS) for your off hand, which you cannot compensate otherwise (except weapon skill rating gear).

Of course it could be wrong and there is a jump after the first 5 points just like for hit, in this case you'd be losing much less.

I was Mace/Sword spec for about a month or so with a build very very similar to Gryzemuis's. I was using Dragonstrike and a Season 2 OH Sword. All of these attempts are with an Enh Shaman, Feral Druid, DST, and Pre-WF hotfix. No 33/28 Warrior for BF either, sadly.

Early attempts of Mag with that spec(one 8 minute fight, another 10)
- WWS
- WWS

Void Reaver Death
- WWS

Gruul Death
- WWS

To say the least, I was quite pleased. I've since gone with a S2 MH and it seems lacking compared to my Dragonstrike. (and doesn't come close to looking as cool as it) I've gone swords to prepare for the haste nerf though.

Tidewalker with pure sword spec. Enh Shaman, Fury Warrior. Using GoA because shaman "thought" it was better post hotfix.
- WWS

Hopefully a Talon will drop soon enough to replace my Arena MH. =]


Edit: And yes songster, with the recent weaponskill proof, thanks to sp00n, being Human would give you more points to move around if you so pleased. But missing Imp. Evis, or a few points in Vile/Imp. Poisons didn't really seem to leave a mark on my dps all too much.

I've been wondering the same thing. A lot of the talent builds I've seen have 3-5 points in Vile Poisons. Since a number of raid mobs are poison immune are people using this for PvP and applying Deadly Poison instead of Crippling on the OH? What is the application I'm missing?

EDIT: grammar