Enhancement shaman or some other dps class? - Page 3

Xizenta · 06/01/07, 7:14 PM

Isn't it a bit unrealistic for you guys to talk about optimal enhancement shaman groups being 3 rogues and a DPS warrior? I have no idea about your raids, but our raids have room for 3-4 melee dps and that is all.

I really wonder about the utility of an enhancement shaman when bringing him comes at the cost of another rogue and only buffs 2 other melee in most cases.

5 melee dps... Is it realistic?

Obviously this type of raid setup could be viable for some bosses. But what player is willing to spec only to be arguably useful on a handful of fights. Are they going to sit for half or more of your encounters?

• Jeffonious · 06/01/07, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Xizenta

5 melee dps... Is it realistic?

Obviously this type of raid setup could be viable for some bosses. But what player is willing to spec only to be arguably useful on a handful of fights. Are they going to sit for half or more of your encounters?

Yes.

We run with a full time enh shaman and he never sits. If nessasary he will throw on healing gear and heal but that doesnt happen very often.

Azaranth · 06/01/07, 8:06 PM

An Enhancement Shaman probably has 15-20 points into the Resto tree, and really isn't a poor healer when he puts on his restoration gear. Any smart shaman has good resto gear, regardless of spec.

That said, I haven't seen a raiding encounter yet where the Enhancement Shaman has been asked to heal instead of DPS. I don't really understand what Xizenta is saying.. your guild only takes 2 melee dps on raids? Or are you just doing Karazhan or something?

Malan · 06/01/07, 8:15 PM

Originally Posted by Xizenta

Isn't it a bit unrealistic for you guys to talk about optimal enhancement shaman groups being 3 rogues and a DPS warrior? I have no idea about your raids, but our raids have room for 3-4 melee dps and that is all.

I'd love for you to post what your average raid composition looks like.

slant · 06/01/07, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Unaz

Here's easy numbers to tell your raid leader:

Unaz, is it OK if I steal your post for the shaman FAQ on the blizz forums? I will give attribution, of course.

Edit: I'm going to add it, please let me know if you would like it to be removed and I'll comply.

Graul · 06/02/07, 4:31 AM

Originally Posted by Xizenta

Isn't it a bit unrealistic for you guys to talk about optimal enhancement shaman groups being 3 rogues and a DPS warrior? I have no idea about your raids, but our raids have room for 3-4 melee dps and that is all.

I really wonder about the utility of an enhancement shaman when bringing him comes at the cost of another rogue and only buffs 2 other melee in most cases.

5 melee dps... Is it realistic?

We usually have 2 Rogues, 1 Shaman, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Warrior. The Druid is an OT for trash and when not doing that, DPS.

Xizenta · 06/02/07, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

I'd love for you to post what your average raid composition looks like.

I looked up the last few bosses in SSC we did... Here's what it looks like

-Ranged DPS
2 Shadow Priests
3 Mages
3 Warlocks
3 Hunters

-Healers
1 Holy Priest
2 Resto Druids
2-3 Resto Shaman (Depends on pally availability?)
2-3 Paladin

-Tanks
1 Feral Druid
1-2 Prot Warriors

-Melee DPS
2 Rogues
0-1 DPS Warrior (Depends how many protection warriors we have since our DPS warriors respec often.)
1 Enhancement Shaman

Now, of course I never said that we didn't have enhancement shaman, (we have two.) I just question how useful they are, usually clocking in a considerable amount less than our rogues and only buffing 2-3 people in a group (never four.) My damage doesn't go up more than ten percent and the enhancement shaman usually underperforms by over thirty (from our two rogues.) They also don't have the means to protect themselves the way that a rogue can lessen it's own liabilities with cloak of shadows, vanish, evasion, and we don't require a single target salv every 5 minutes and after an ankh.

Also, when I say these shaman fall 30% short of a rogue, that is running with over a thousand fewer hitpoints;
The only reason I could ever see for a guild to take an enhancement shaman over a rogue would be to prevent otherwise unused enhancement shaman gear from going to waste... But in this case I think about what loot there really is for enhancement shaman and I can't think of any, aside from the tier 5 that a handful of other players could use, their trinkets, rings, cloaks, and necklaces are useful for multiple classes and their bracers/boots are rogue loots (leather.) Maybe if there were more (any?) enhancement shaman specific items... Or if a guild ran with five melee dps.

Malan · 06/02/07, 12:23 PM

/shrug I guess. If you can't see the value of his buffs already by reading this thread and then somehow figure out how to improve your group compositions to take advantage of that, than I guess there's no helping you.

Edit - you seem to be running pretty healer heavy btw. In a 25 man raid you've just posted that you run with close to 10 healers, almost half your raid. Granted I haven't started SSC yet (next week) but I try to only take 6, 8 at the absolute most.

Nite_Moogle · 06/02/07, 12:36 PM

-Melee DPS
2 Rogues
0-1 DPS Warrior (Depends how many protection warriors we have since our DPS warriors respec often.)
1 Enhancement Shaman

If this is all you bring for melee classes, then it's not really worth having an enhancement shaman along.

Xizenta · 06/02/07, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Edit - you seem to be running pretty healer heavy btw. In a 25 man raid you've just posted that you run with close to 10 healers, almost half your raid. Granted I haven't started SSC yet (next week) but I try to only take 6, 8 at the absolute most.

I posted 8 healers, this is the minimum for most bosses. Unless you were counting shadow priests, which you shouldnt.

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

If this is all you bring for melee classes, then it's not really worth having an enhancement shaman along.

I think I agree. Am I wrong in saying that most guilds seem to run with that kind of setup and it seems best for many (most?) encounters?

Graul · 06/02/07, 1:48 PM

I don't think we've ever taken more than 8 healers on any fight. Usually, unless we are having too many deaths on a new encounter we use 7.

Malan · 06/02/07, 3:32 PM

Originally Posted by Xizenta

I think I agree. Am I wrong in saying that most guilds seem to run with that kind of setup and it seems best for many (most?) encounters?

My guild generally runs with 1.5 physical groups that can get full benefit of totems.

Nite_Moogle · 06/02/07, 3:48 PM

Am I wrong in saying that most guilds seem to run with that kind of setup and it seems best for many (most?) encounters?

Generalizing guild makeup is dumb. A lot of guilds have melee-heavy rosters and make do with it. Just because your particular guild doesn't have a good composition for an enhancement shaman hardly means that you are at liberty to imply the spec is useless.

Crazypie · 06/03/07, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

Generalizing guild makeup is dumb. A lot of guilds have melee-heavy rosters and make do with it. Just because your particular guild doesn't have a good composition for an enhancement shaman hardly means that you are at liberty to imply the spec is useless.

I definitely must agree. My guild is very melee heavy. On average, we have 2 feral druids, 2 dps warriors, 3 rogues, and an enhancement shaman. We're going to get Leo down tonite most likely.

Raiding is all about using what you have available to its highest potential. If we have a lot of melee online and few ranged, we sure as hell don't say "Man, we can't raid tonight." We make due with what we got, and I must say, I'm very proud of my guild's melee because we're always neck and neck with our locks/mages who all run atleast 1000shadow/fire damage w/ pve builds (affliction, heavy fire).

I also have the opinion that melee is farm from a handicap. Very few fights are unfriendly to melee now, and if you check first kill movies, you'll usually see a healthy spatter of melee thrown in. The only fight I can think of that isn't that melee friend is A'Lar and MAYBE void reaver.

Unaz · 06/07/07, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by slant

Unaz, is it OK if I steal your post for the shaman FAQ on the blizz forums? I will give attribution, of course.

Edit: I'm going to add it, please let me know if you would like it to be removed and I'll comply.

Oh yeah it's fine. I've been busy and not keeping up with topics.

Thanks for asking though!

slant · 06/07/07, 7:19 PM

No worries, thanks for the permission.

Igniter · 06/07/07, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by Xizenta

Isn't it a bit unrealistic for you guys to talk about optimal enhancement shaman groups being 3 rogues and a DPS warrior? I have no idea about your raids, but our raids have room for 3-4 melee dps and that is all.

I really wonder about the utility of an enhancement shaman when bringing him comes at the cost of another rogue and only buffs 2 other melee in most cases.

5 melee dps... Is it realistic?

Obviously this type of raid setup could be viable for some bosses. But what player is willing to spec only to be arguably useful on a handful of fights. Are they going to sit for half or more of your encounters?

A pure melee group is worth it, but look at what you lose: a full time healer.

We have 4 rogues who show every raid, 4 warriors (one fury) and a feral druid. Losing me as a healer and forcing someone to sit (sometimes was me) wasn't very viable, at least to the officers. Shaman buffs are great, but is your melee slacking that much? Does your raid NEED much more dps?

Touf · 06/07/07, 9:40 PM

Originally Posted by Igniter

A pure melee group is worth it, but look at what you lose: a full time healer.

We have 4 rogues who show every raid, 4 warriors (one fury) and a feral druid. Losing me as a healer and forcing someone to sit (sometimes was me) wasn't very viable, at least to the officers. Shaman buffs are great, but is your melee slacking that much? Does your raid NEED much more dps?

...Do you NEED much more free time? Do you NEED much more money?

Igniter · 06/07/07, 9:45 PM

Originally Posted by Touf

...Do you NEED much more free time? Do you NEED much more money?

Do you need healing on some fights? Yes. Are some fights pretty much all healing? Yes. Is it worth it to have potentially lower dps to keep a solid healer (lol 3 min till leo enrage on kill)? Probably.