Moulman

Hey guys, I'm new to the EJ forums and looking for some advice. I've been a dual wield fury warrior for about 5 months now, and our guild just broke into BT/Hyjal. I've always been the kind of player that plans out exactly what pieces of gear he wants to get in an instance and just waits for them to drop. However with the variety of itemization in BT and Hyjal, mainly the addition of armor penetration and haste, I'm unsure as to what is going to be the largest boost to my dps. I do solid dps, though not incredible, I put out 1500-1600 dps on gorefiend typically. Anyway I was wondering if some of you more experienced warriors could give me your opinion on what i should be looking to upgrade as far as my gear. Thanks for any and all help!

Here's my armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory

 

Naolin

So my DPS options are Dragonstrike, Swiftsteel bludgeon, and syphon of the nath

i'm kinda confused on what i should MH and what i should OH - i'm currently doing Syphon in MH and swiftsteel bludgeon in my OH - but i've been reading through all these posts and i find some people bank them, some people prefer them... confused

The World of Warcraft Armory

 

mikebro

[Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond

[Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond

 

Naolin

i dunno why - but i cant get it to work on my comp ><

 

Zadus

Please correct my math on this if im wrong.

Solarian's Sapphire = 70 Attack power

70 ap x commanding presence's 25 percent = 87.5ap

87.5ap x unleashed rage's 10 percent = 96.25ap

96.25 ap x 5 melee in the group = 481.25 total ap from everyone in the group. I hope i worded that right. Thats 481 total ap that group didnt have before the trinket.

Is that math correct? If so i can definately see the huge raid benefit you get from it coupled with blood frenzy debuff.

I know i didnt include imp beserker. Im ms pve

If all this math is correct then i have one question. If you total up all 5 of the melee's ap without that 481 added to the total and then add it to it. How much would that honestly help dps wise? I guess what im trying to ask. IS there anyway to tell how much dps is being gained by the 481ap total from all 5 people.

 

• Mjollnir

Your answer is easy. Simple comparison:
How obvious is your dps difference between unbuffed, and self buffed (imp bshout)?
Now consider a 'free' or 'extra' bshout collectively, split between 5 people. I'd think some things are obvious to the point that no math is needed.

 

mikebro

I don't think it's really that simple to compare. Yes, it's easy when you think of something like Berserker's Call or Bloodlust Brooch, but how does it compare to a Madness of the Betrayer, Tsunami Talisman, and especially Dragonspine Trophy?

 

Kaan

I honestly don't think 400 extra ap (with unleashed rage and 5/5 commanding presence) from 4 melees (not counting yourself) is deciding anything in any raid. How much percent of damage would this be for the raid - like nearly nothing? Though perhaps the 300 extra life can save your life, so you can make some extra decent dps to the end of the bossfight that could be important.

Sorry for the bad joke, but I honestly don't think, that this trinket is anywhere "good" or nearly "the best". With 30 Stamina on it, it has the opposite stat any warrior needs on a class trinket. And it is a affront to every warrior who doesn't wants to be pushed in the "you-are-only-a-supporter"-role. It's a trinket, many people force them selves to wear, because it's "the best" in bare numbers.

Just wear what you like to wear, and don't force yourself to wear this bad-designed "class trinket". Saying this, I will stay with DST/TT until I get a real upgrade.

Edit: typo

 

Natural

+480 total AP for your party ~ +480 AP for you (within 5-10%) and +480 AP for you > any other trinket (other than pre-nerf DST)

The extra AP for the party can 'decide a raid' just as much as a DST for yourself can decide a raid. Have you never wiped at 1%?

If we had a warrior with the trinket who refused to wear it I would probably kick them out of the guild. The people in this forum are generally looking to progress their guilds and not flex their personal WWS logs.

 

nolena

If people keep thinking personal dps is more important then raid dps, well then they don't belong in a real raiding guild.
Also the +sta on the trinket IS usefull as there are alot of fights in mh/bt where it really helps.

 

Zalein

It doesn't matter how much the overall DPS raid increase is from using that trinket. The fact of the matter is that raid DPS >IS< higher with the Solarian trinket and therefore is the best option. By your argument enhancement shamans should also stop using WF totem and use agility because it's better DPS for him? Overall raid DPS is your objective, not personal DPS - no matter how small the difference is.

 

Reliknom

I don't say that this is the case with any current triket, but a time will come, maybe as soon as patch 2.4, when the additional raid DPS from the sapphire will be less, than the personal DPS from another trinket. Of course the AP bonus also scales with the gear of your melee group, but a well rounded item similar to the madness might eventually beat it.

"Morituri Nolumus Mori!"

 

DKP-Borgar

That's the sad thing about the sapphire. It provides a nice grp DPS boost but it takes away one of your gearslots for a looong time... In a raid scenario raid DPS is alway about maximizing results. But(!) why do warriors get the grp-buff trinket? I mean rogues alway get pure personal DPS class trinkets. Why not give them something useful that increases grp/raid DPS?

It seems warriors are put into a buff/debuff role and rogues only provide dmg (3-click-rotation... woheee). They provide no other useful incentive...


The think is, where are warriors heading?
I hope with the -10% threat we can sustain our DPS output. Rouges will be in 1st spot by default of course (blizz said that) but maybe we can compete for #2-3 spot against warlocks and mages.
Btw anybody seen a rogue without a warrior ap-shout ? I noticed on early vashj kill, how their dps went down down down when no totems/LoP/BS were uppon them, because they were running around in phase2 (before we optimized positioning).

As some also mentioned BT/Hyal bosses have less armor, so we will see decreasing DPS numbers in Sunwell, I guess. Unless -armor stacks even more on T7.

 

Zalein

As soon as another trinket can provide the raid DPS increase that the sapphire does then yeah, of course one should want to change it. But I don't see that coming soon at all... Like someone said earlier, your battle shout is responsible for a lot of the rogue's damage: perhaps around 50DPS per group member.

It is interesting that rogues have never buffed the group in any way (except perhaps for hemo, but that's hardly seen due to it's impracticality), but then again, the whole melee group is based around buffing the rogues. But look at it from this point of view:

The typical setup of warrior, shaman, druid, 2x rogues usually ends up in the following on the DPS meters (with DPS stats from a random Anetheron kill):
Rogue #1 - 1770DPS
Rogue #2 - 1630DPS
Warrior - 1470DPS
Druid - 1450DPS
Shaman - 1430DPS

We're usually the top 5, depending on the encounter. If we can assume that the battle shout adds at least 50DPS per group member AND Blood Frenzy debuff adds around 200-250 DPS (I have actually done napkin math on this but I can't find it and can't be bothered to do it again just now) spread throughout the raid then the warrior contributed to the raid with around 1870-1920 DPS whereas the rogues only did what shows on the meters. I'm not too fussed about our DPS and raid position once I look at it from this point of view, tbh.

 

Pitbuller

You cant stack warriors/druid/shaman buffs but you can stack rogues.

Diffenrent classes scales with ap something like...
Rough numbers but these are so gear depency that cant make up betters.
1dps = ? ap
Warrior = 2.5-3
Rogue = 3
eShaman = 4
Druid = 5
So 70ap per group menber give:
warrior 23-28dps + 2* rogue 47dps + shaman 17.5dps + druid 14dps
so 102-107dps to group with one trinket to raid.

I think enhance shaman contributed that raid over 2500dps. (wf+ur+str totem, maybe even agi totem twist + fire totems hidden from wws parser)

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Zalein

It's damn crazy how much raid DPS contribution an enhancement shaman has. Not even mentioning the other members of the party, I still flip out at how much my DPS suffers when our enhance shaman is away or unable to raid; it goes down about 400-500 DPS.

 

Kaan

Then you simply didn't understand what I meant.

It can, but probably it never will be. We are speaking about 400 AP for the whole raid (we are speaking about the support-ap not the personal ap, so not counting the warrior - the warrior himself would make more DPS with another trinket. In my case TT delivers ~25 DPS more than SS) . Nothing more.

But anyway I'am not talking about egoism here. I'm simply talking about forcing to wear yourself a trinket, that IS bad designed, having alternatives like DST, TT or MOTB. You would kick a player out of your guild, when he doesn't LIKE to wear this, I won't, because this trinket isn't deciding in most of the time, or even the whole time. WoW isn't just about "best numbers" it's also about fun - since this is true, your arguments aren't ultimate. Just my opinion.

 

Moogul

This holds true for any item individually. Is the Sapphire over the DST likely to make the difference between a wipe and a kill? Probably not. Is T5 chest over T4 chest likely to make the difference between a wipe and a kill? No, probably not, but you'd still wear it because it's an upgrade. When you add 10 'small chances to make a difference', you get 1 big chance to make a difference. The fact still is that Solarian's sapphire makes more of a difference than any other trinket, perhaps more than any other item. It's *insanely* good.

Is it good design that this one trinket is so good it will never be replaced in the whole of TBC? No, probably not. They made it a bit too good (like the pre-nerf DST, which they realised and changed). Whether they'll nerf the sapphire I don't know, but whilst we have it, if we want to do our best, we should use it.

If you would rather wear a 'cooler' trinket because you like it, that's fine. I have (on occasion) worn items that were worse than others I had, simply because 'they looked cooler'. I got the Arena S2 shoulders months ago, because I liked how good they are. I could probably have gotten a couple of small upgrades since then (nothing major), but I'd rather keep these because they look good. However, I'm not going to go to a theorycraft forum, which discusses how best to play a DPS warrior, and claim that they are better than the alternatives:

(Emphasis mine)

If you don't like the design or style of the trinket, fine, but claiming it is not 'a real upgrade' or not 'good' or 'the best' is completely misinformed and inaccurate.

 

Natural

It is not poorly designed. Your preferences are.

From a pure DPS perspective, this trinket nearly the equivalent of 4.6 talent points in the warrior tree (Commanding Presence) and also adds 30 stamina. If you can find a comparable trinket anywhere in the game, please let me know.

 

Kaan

Yes, I apologize for saying this. Anyway I always accepted that this trinket delivers the most dps for the entire raid.

But I'm only talking about this trinket. I'm talking about this, because I don't like this trinket and I don't want to wear it until WoW comes to an end - I don't think any trinket only concerning personal DPS can replace this, even lvl 80 epic trinket's probably won't. So you want to wear it "forever"? This trinket just provokes this thoughts.

 

• Mjollnir

But you neglect that the warrior makes use of the trinket himself. Under the right conditions, it's a static 106ap alone to a fury warrior. Compare that to BBrooch, or Tsunami, or even DST. Keep in mind the BBrooch has a static ap equivalent of roughly the same, and the procs on the other 2 have hidden c/ds.
Alone, it's very comparable to your other options. The breaking point, obviously, is the 96ap to 4 other people.

 

Thorquiz

I for myself decided: now that we killed Illidan (perhaps not yet the case for you or other warriors, dunno), there's basically no more need to provide this support to raid-dps (because we actually beat all content) and I can go for a selfish egofucker-dps-trinket. Given that after Sunwell is released it'll be the same situation as before killing Illidan, I'll maybe go back to SS ... because it's just so damned good.

 

Kaan

Okay, thank you all for your replies. From now on I will treat Solarian Sapphire with more respect and make more use of it.


I have some thoughts for a new discussion:

I did some tests with DPS-Spreadsheet 0.9.6 and found out, that T6 isn't that much inferior to setups with random epics:

This are the numbers:

1578 DPS with Full T6

1584,7 DPS with 4/5 T6 and Gloves of Silent Justice

1590 DPS with 4/5 T6 and Leggings of Divine Retribution

1589,5 DPS with 2/5 T6 and Gloves of Silent Justice, Helm of the Illidari Shatterer and Leggings of Divine Retribution

Whats your opinion/experience about this? 4/5 T6 with 4PC Bonus, or 2/5 with more random epics, or even Full T6? Thanks in advance.

 

Dynalisia

If you are not trying to boost your own dps for the purpose of killing the boss faster and contributing to the succes of your raids by doing so, then I think the only remaining motivation would be trying to impress your guildmates with it and earn (more of) their respect or admiration. But in that case I'd have to ask myself how badly I would be kidding myself when at the same time most of my guild would probably be disappointed to learn I am gimping our raid dps by doing so.

Edit:
Even though I did not expect it, I came to the same conclusion before. The thing is though that for a lot of DPS warriors, the off-tier epics will be a lot easier to acquire simply because there is no competition for them (worst case, 1 other dps warrior, but how many guilds are really running with two?) and the Tier items are best in slot for the other classes you share it with. 4 pieces of T6 and Silent Justice gloves came out just ahead of other combination for me a while ago, but not enough to actually prioritize it for me and hold out on any off-tier items dropping that could buff my dps instantly. So what I decided to do is just get all the off-tier that drops for me and by the time everyone has their Tier items, I start collecting the onslaught pieces I need.

 

Natural