Kaan

I want to point out, that Slow/Slow or Slow/Fast weapon setup isn't important here, though other things mentioned in my posts are. Yeah he probably plays good, but I've never questioned that.

To Mjollnir: Yep I'm sorry, I already read this here before, but forgot that.

 

Gruntle

The increase in WW damage is most probably even less than that, I agree with you fast-fast is probably the best option in almost all cases where you want to maximise damage from HS spam. But, fast-slow will be undeniably better if you have unlimited rage , which was the point I was trying to make.

I don't really think fast-slow is that bad (I was running with that or a long time due to not getting any new weapon drops) and didn't really have much problems. The only problem you could get is possible rage starvation due to miss streaks with OH and excessive use of HS, but that is a problem for all setups with slow weapons. To summarize, and bear in mind that this is for a high rage situation when you can use HS on almost every swing (at SSC/TK level you should really be more worried about keeping up the BT/WW cycle):
- Slow-Fast, medium WW damage, medium HS damage (slow MH, smooth rage generation)
- Slow-Slow, high WW damage, low HS damage (slow MH, chunky rage generation)
- Fast-Slow, <medium WW damage, medium HS damage (fast MH, chunky rage generation)
- Fast-Fast, low WW damage, high HS damage (fast MH, smooth rage generation)

The point Kaan is trying to make is that chunky rage generation will not hurt your HS damage (thus giving slow-slow the edge). I don't agree with this, I find it a lot harder using HS aggressively when using slow-slow (disclaimer, I am however at SSC/TK level of gear so feel free to ignore my experiences ). Otherwise you should select a weapon setup based on what you believe is most important in terms of damage (extra WW damage cf to extra HS damage from fast MH/smooth rage generation).

 

• Mjollnir

I missed this, apologies. Also, I had edited my post to reflect truer values while I suppose you had been responding. Just an FYI as it might be more considerable than I had originally posted.
(Syphon and SS Bludgeon being the weapons compared).

Edit: below, the normalized values are calculated with fast:slow comparison. There is hardly a difference apparently.

 

Webb

Why hasnt anyone caught up with the fact that Perkynose has 13x "Haste" buffs on the Brutallus WWS? I mean, we cant see how many Bloodlusts/Heroisms he had, since Shard of Contempt proc the "Heroism" buff, but thats not the matter.

Its the general assumption that DST has an internal cd of 45s, and in a 6 mins fight, that accounts for 8 procs. That is, on the paper. DST will never proc off your very first hit, and will never refresh itself with the first hit after the initial proc runs out - chain-proc so to speak. And in a Brut fight, you can use max 3x haste pots.

On top on all this, Perkynose is doing a 5 mins 30 sec Brut kill, which means 3x haste pots, 7x (theoretical!) DST procs, no Abacus of violent odds, no warglave proc...

Where on earth does the last 3 haste buffs come from? What did i miss?

 

◊ Hotspur

If he was using Dragonstrike or the Abacus, those procs/uses are ALSO called Haste. I really wish WWS would use spell ID numbers, rather than name to categorize items in a parse. "Haste" (of differing values) is the name for DST, Abacus, Dragonstrike and potions.

 

Cavein

Could mongoose on offhand account for the extra haste procs?

On the subject of WWS and checking how many heroisms are received. Assuming all shaman use it you can interogate the heroism ID to see how many players other than those with Shard of Contempt received it. Whatever is left should tell you how many times melee received heroism.

 

Webb

Nah, mongoose procs "Lightning speed"..

And good idea on the heroism part, if you can figure out how the groups were set.

 

Crimsonstorm

About the fast weapon being better heroic strike damage thing: You really have to have a ton of rage for this to come out ahead.

One of the main advantages of heroic strike is that it converts a white hit with the extra 19% miss penalty to a special attack.

So lets say the attack is with a weapon of 100 dps, 2.7 speed, and 3500 AP. That AP is 250dps, so average damage done is 350*2.7 = 945.

Lets say you have about 12% +hit including precision, so a bit over the cap but not a ton. This is probably a reasonable average. Lets say you have 35% crit. Lets say you have 11 expertise skill due to Shard of Contempt, and 2/2 Weapon mastery, reducing dodges to about 1.45%-1.75%. (If its 6.2 and 6.5% respectively). I'm going to use 1.5% for simplicity.

The white attack will be:
16% miss (0)
1.5% dodge (0)
25% glancing (.65*945)
22.5% hit (1.0*945)
35% crit (2.03*945) with relentless earthstorm diamond

Average = .25*.65*945 + .225*945 + .35*2.03*945 = 1037 average damage = 384 dps

The heroic strike will be 945+176 damage, or 1121.
The table will be:
0% miss (0)
1.5% dodge (0)
63.5% hit (1.0 * 1121)
35% crit (2.23 * 1121)

Average = .635 * 1121 + .35*2.23*1121 = 1586 (587 dps)

Gain by heroic striking every attack with 2.7 speed weapon: 203 dps (plus more procs).
Rage cost = All MH rage generation + 4.44 rage per second.


For a 1.6 speed wepaon, also 100 dps, same stats, damage per hit = 560 on average:
Average = .25*.65*560 + .225*560 + .35*2.03*560 = 614. Still 384 dps.

The heroic stike does a base of 560+176 = 736 damage base.
Average = .635 * 736 + .35*2.23*736 = 1041 (651 dps).

The faster weapon increased our heroic strike dps by 64dps more than doing this with a 2.7 speed weapon.
The rage cost is now: All MH rage generation + 7.5 rage per second.


Now how much Whirlwind dps do we lose?
Whirlwind does weapon damage, and is a special attack, so damage is:
(.635*1.0 + .35*2.23) * 350*Speed, or 495*Weapon speed for the main hand hit. Using every 9 seconds we get:
1337/9 = 148 dps from WW from MH 2.7 speed weapon.
792/9 = 88 dps from WW with MH 1.6 speed weapon.

Thats a loss of 60 dps from Whirlwind by having a MH speed of 1.6 instead of 2.7.
Additionally, we will get less extra procs of executioner, etc.

Total effect of switching from Slow MH to Fast MH, if you use heroic strike EVERY attack:
+64 heroic strike dps, -60 WW dps, less procs. The procs are worth more than 4 dps, so:

1) You lose dps, due to the loss of WW dps being as big a factor as your HS dps gain, and you lose procs.
2) Your rage cost increases
There is no benefit.

If you heroic strike less often than every attack, then it becomes WORSE than this. You still lose the same amount of WW damage but your heroic strike gains go down.

Conclusion: Even with inifinite rage, it is still superior to use a slow main hand weapon. (In non-execute range).

If you incorporate some haste into both of these weapons, you'll still get a similar result.

Slow MH is correct, even under infinite rage.

 

Fishhead

Does anyone know if a numerical DPS increase has been found for using two weapons of the same speed?

 

Crimsonstorm

I forgot about Whirlwind normalization. Anyone know if its normalized? If so there is some modest gain for fast weapon in a truly infinite rage situation, but youre losing out on both some WW damage, and procs, and paying a lot more rage.

 

Moogul

As far as I am aware it is, and all calculations for it I've seen have assumed it's normalized, but I have to admit I don't have proof of that at present. It was certainly always normalized for the mainhand, it would seem silly to have the offhand not normalized.

If you want to test it just grab some low level grey swords and whack something.

 

dr_AllCOM3

Yes, every instant attack is.

 

• Apate

For warriors. At least Stormstrike is an exception.

See you, auntie.
"You don't need a machine to make a rainbow. For rainbows are made of happy thoughts, and dreams, and chocolate unicorns, and gumdrops, and licorice sunsets, and fuzzy gumdrop bears, and sugar-coated chocolate gumdrop land."

Originally Posted by DeeNogger I am coming for you Apate.

 

Ikons

Maybe I'm missing something here, but being that whirlwind is normalized and unless a dagger is being used, shouldn't the OH hit for the same despite weapon speeds being different? This is of course if the weapon does the same amount of dps.

 

Graul

4000 AP and WW:

[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] hits for 522 on average.
[Rising Tide] hits for 591 on average.

The difference is almost negligible. It's biggest impact would be on trash AE, but on a boss fight whatever gives you the most consistent incoming rage generation would probably work better.

 

Gruntle

Thanks for the long analysis, it seems the difference in HS damage was quite smaller than what I would have expected.

But comparing the WW damage from the slow and fast weapons is obviously done incorrectly since WW damage is normalized. With very high AP this effect will not be minor. At 3.5K AP a large part of the damage will come from normalized AP, making the slow weapon lose 0.3 weapon speed (from 2.7 to 2.4) and making the fast weapon gain 0.8 in weapon speed (from 1.6 to 2.4).
Using your numbers
Slow weapon, MH WW damage:
(.635*1.0 + .35*2.23)*(270+3500/14*2.4) = 1231 => dps = 137
Fast weapon, MH WW damage:
(.635*1.0 + .35*2.23)*(160+3500/14*2.4) = 1076 => dps = 119

The gain in using a slow MH for WW is only 18 dps. Comparing this to the 64 dps you get from using HS with a fast weapon makes the fast MH a bit more attractive. You will lose out on some procs and a slightly lower flurry uptime.

That HS spam with a fast weapon costs more rage is not interesting when you're already making the assumption of infinite rage. Still, even with a <100% use of HS I think the gain will be higher than the puny amount of extra damage you get from using WW with a slow MH. It's way harder to model though, one way of looking at it would be to say that you won't gain anything from using a fast weapon when your HS "cooldown" (due to lack of rage) with the fast weapon is longer than the slow weapon speed by some factor (related to the dps gain, 18 dps+proc dps+extra flurry uptime dps). I have no idea how to model the extra dps from procs though.

 

suicuique

Dualwielding Dragonstrikes

This got me somewhat intrigued because of the implications, so I crafted two dragonstrikes on the PTR last week.
Promptly testing them I enjoyed that the procs were stacking (there was a screenshot floating around showing the stacking procs) and was regularly hasted down to 1.7 spd from 2.7 speed (stacking procs + flurry).

But this is moot.
I testes them again yesterday and today and have not got any stacking haste buffs from the dragonstrikes.
They still have no CD, even single wielding one gets you refreshing buffs quite often, but I had not a single stacking buff from MH + OH. I never got below 1.9 hasted speed.

Another interesting tidbit:
When the buff was refreshed the combatlog did not protocol this occurence, which is par for the course for refreshing buffs and combatlog working.
BUT see this screenshot (sorry for the german UI):


At 12:54:51 I got the (nonrefreshing) proc.
Timestamp 12:54:56 hower shows a refreshing buff by fading and starting the buff again.
Singlewielding I never got any of these happening..
Dualwielding these show up.
Could this be the OH proc canceling the MH buff?

Anyone else getting stacking buffs lately or am I wrong in this?

 

Crucif

I'm a new-ish BT raider as of the new patch and have consider myself as a strong dps warrior as I have been the top in my guild, but as I've been reading the forums today I know I have a lot to work on. One concept I'm missing is this "hamstring spam." Can someone explain it to me please? Thanks. Btw props to Perkynose on that mad dps!

 

nfw

I would think that's intentional, since haste buffs of the same type are not supposed to stack.

 

Giantlol

Back before the nerf it meant spamming hamstring to proc windfuries, people use it now to burn off little bits of extra rage or to proc flurry I suppose, I know I definitely don't do it anymore, no time in the rotation nor is it at all worth it :P

 

Wump

Hamstring can crit so, spamming it is an attempt to gain or refresh Flurry. It's an instant cast which you can throw in during the downtime between BT's and WW's if there's nothing else to do. Personally, I only use it if there is absolutely nothing else that needs to be refreshed or done.

If Dragonstrike no longer stacks, I suppose that puts an end to that argument. Show of hands though, who didn't see it coming?

 

Giantlol

Not even fury but I think I saw that coming, it would definitely have made Dragonstrike pretty ridiculous and almost irreplacable for a while, especially for SSC/TK/Beginnning BT/Hyjal raiders.

But yeah, as for hamstring spam, I generally never do it when I'm PvE 2h, and rarely if ever when I'm fury, unless I absolutely cannot crit for the life of me, which does happen time to time.

 

Crimsonstorm

I think Dragonstrike should stack, and wouldnt be broken if it did, because its worse in the OH than the Badge fist which costs only 45 badges, because the OH doesnt proc nearly as much.

But with it not stacking, its not even worth considering.

 

Gruntle

Of course it shouldn't stack, no other procs of that kind do. And why should Dual DS be viable at end game when the new badge weapons and BT weapons have way higher item level? That the badge weapons are ridiculously good for the price and availability might be an issue, but that has nothing to do with how good DS is or should be.

And yes, I raise my hand. I saw it coming for sure.

About spamstring. I'd never do that as DW fury unless I already have the rage to do HS on every white swing. HS beats hamstring both in terms of damage per rage and in terms of damage per threat (remember that hamstring has bonus threat). As 2h PvE with sword spec hamstring should be excellent as a filler, but I'm not sure how many free cooldowns you have.