dr_AllCOM3

I get those values (same two weapons, ungemmed, BT+WW+HS@65, numbers are just for scale, all at Lv80):
Apolyon 1792
Felspine 1774
S4 1771
BoH 1755
Cataclysm 1747
S3 1736
Torch 1727

So any combination of Apo/Felspine/S4 is quite good, BoH is nice.
Weapons are not synced if you start meleeing in melee range.

 

• Gink

You're not able to dual wield Felspine, as it's a polearm.

Gink

 

dr_AllCOM3

That didn't stop me from simulating it.

 

Lord Pendragon

Does the human racial expertise bonus change anything?

I've got 2 Jin'Rohks in the bank, but also have enough badges for a pair of BoH. I've been uncertain which of the two will perform higher dps, factoring in the extra 5 expertise I get from wielding swords as a human.

 

• Gink

Human expertise is nerfed to 3 Expertise now. I expect 2xBoH would be quite a bit better, the stats on those things are pretty amazing.

Gink

 

Sepulture

I've been testing on the PTR with a 53/8/0 build in order to see what approach will maximize my dps. What kills me is that slam no longer clips autoattacks. That means logically that there is no reason to stick to a rotation.

So far it seems that staying in zerker and using this "hierarchical" rotation:

1) MS when up
2) Next WW when up
3) Execute lit then use it if 1 and 2 are still on CD
4) Slam if 1 and 2 are not about to come off CD and you have over 45 rage or are about to autoattack with over 15 rage
5) HS if MS, WW are on CD execute is not lit and you have almost full rage

It's not really a "slam rotation" like before 3.0. It's much more reactive and difficult to pull off. Has anyone else experienced this "hierarchical" approach as the best dps in 3.0 as 53/8/0, or am I missing the boat here? It seemed that staying in battle for OP was terrible. Stance dancing for OP was horrible too.

 

Sepulture

After adding an enhancement shaman to my group it became very apparent that staying in battle stance, keeping rend up, spamming OP and Execute when they pop, MS when off CD, and using slam to burn rage is the way to go for dps at 70 in 3.0.

 

Stachi

On the PTR does the anticipatory activation of Heroic Strike become deactivated when you use Slam? I would suspect that the suspension of the auto-swing would have that effect.

The efficiency of a half-second swing time Slam has more to do with your combat situation. Certainly the suspension of the auto-swing is much more beneficial as the fifteen rage used may now be replenished with the subsequent white swing. To use that macro you must be assured that you will benefit from the exchange of your white swing for the Heroic Strike and that for another auto-swing's duration you will have sufficient rage to apply any buffs or activate any ability procs that may occur.

 

Beefcakes

Assuming you got fury with the patch (lvl70). Do you reckon +hit is once again the next big thing? I mean is it any better to regem with +10hit over +10crit.

If so is it also better to go from +5str +5crit to +5hit +5agi?

Any1 done any testing on those? remember its lvl70 for continuing with tbc raiding

 

DarkS

Definitely +5 hit / +5 agi isn't the way to go. Agility is something that you should avoid gem for. I'll use +10 hit when possible and Crit and/or Str when not.

 

Gruntle

10 hit is definitely better than 10 crit and 10 str at lvl 70 with TG. From what I can see 5hit/5 agi is actually better than 5str/crit, hit is really really good.

 

outcast

What are you people speccing for the last few weeks of raiding at 70 come 3.0.2?

So far I have been 17/44 Fury with basically full BT gear (dual Glaives) and some of the early SWP pieces. I do have some two-handers (Cataclysm's, Soul Cleaver, could get 2* Blade of Harbingers if necessary), but I wanted to keep the Glaives at 70 for obvious reasons (unless they perform much worse than the two-hander options).

I've run a few tests on Beta which indicate that Incite/Fury (something like 3/50/8) performs much worse than DW/Fury (15/46), and both are outclassed by an Arms/SD build (something like 52/9/0) in terms of damage and fun. I did try some TG variations, but while damage was ok, it wasn't really better and it was really uninspiring to play (slow swing time, barely anything to do).

So right now I'm thinking of going Arms/SD with dualwielding.


I'm also wondering on how to re-gear to account for the different spec and different working of ArP. Items like Divine Ret legs obviously have to go for Archi/T6 legs, but other than that there don't seem to be too many options of getting rid of all that ArP I have accumulated.

I'm mostly gemmed 10str or 5str/5crit right now. Since Str/AP loses a bit of its value as Arms/SD compared to the old 17/44 I have been thinking about replacing the yellow gems with either straight 10crit or maybe even 10hit (to account for loss of Precision and more steady rage generation to spam SD), and the red gems with 5str/5crit.

What are your thoughts?

 

Rub

Outcast: You may find this post and the pages around it informative:
WotLK talent Preview/Discussion

 

outcast

Thank you, I have read that already.

I wanted to ask for some more in-depth discussion and feedback, but the WotLK thread (which is cluttered enough by lumping together tank and DPS posts) didn't really seem the place for discussing TBC 3.0.2 DPS issues. That's why I posted here.

 

Shha

Or get 5 str 4 hit gems - those are the best .
Probably mentioned in this thread but let me repost (or post 1st time)

15 spell hit to gloves -> 15 hit rating (vs 15 str a clear winner)
Surefooted - > 10 hit 10 crit rating (better then run speed unless you run extreme amount of time)
5 spell hit 6 stam gems (Slave pens) -> your hit for blue slots
5 str 4 hit gems (Shadow Labs) -> hit gems for red slots
20 hit food (Spicy Hot talbuk)

Those added together make it rather easy to reach hit cap while preserving meta/socket color requirements and not sacrificing much.

 

• landsoul

Alternatively, I found a strange build rocking dual Brutal 1H Axes 2.6Slow/1.5Fast double mongoose 25/36 socketed for STR.

Build pluses:
potential 60% raid crit (probably cutoff by the crit cap for a boss, might need to find a solution for this)
Insane Deep Wounds damage
-fast offhand crits grant the main hand damage range bleed
Incredibly simple Fury Play-style

Build Cons:
Gotta spend 3750 Arena points


Ran just over 2500 DPS with only standard raid buffs in the beta of my sheet. Unfortunately, its about 100 dps under the capped TG build, but it looks so damn cool and would probably be really fun to watch.

 

Arantis

Do you think that it worths it to change tottaly setup now that penetration is nerfed? I mean to change tottaly the gear by stacking haste where you used to have Arp, including crafts. And moreover for TG that would mean also almost total regemming. You thing is worths all this mess or just go arms save the chaos from reitemization and regemming and dont worry about hit rating being gimped through leveling?

 

Trynant

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Armor Penetration is more of a buff when it comes to boss fights in raids against high-armor opponents. Sure, it's a nerf against casters, but otherwise ArP is still a useful stat.

Titan's Grip builds do demand some small degree of re-itemization, but not to the degree that I suspect most people feel the need for. It comes down to play style really. (Titan's Grip) Fury is for a more steady yet powerfully fast style of play, while Arms is more of a reactive fighting style. I think both would yield similar numbers for DPS with optimal itemization.

 

Grayson Carlyle

I would simply de-emphasize it. Warharness isn't so bad now when compared to Chaos Tunic, Felfury Legplates aren't as bad now when compared to Immortal Night. Hard Khorium Band is much better now, though I'm not sure how it places relative to Ruinous Delight and Stormrage Signet's, it's definitely a worthy upgrade over Angelista's or the ZA ring (instead of just a very minor one). Shadowmoon Destroyer's totally outclasses Dory's Embrace instead of being a situational upgrade. Madness of the Betrayer is not quite as good, but it's not like you had many other options... Divine Retribution is worse than Endless Rage now. Crossbow of Relentless Strikes is better than Quel'thalas...

The biggest losers (items that were competitive or best in slot and are no longer) can be summed up though:
[Cataclysm's Edge]
[Leggings of Divine Retribution]
[Grips of Silent Justice]
[Bladed Chaos Tunic] (though still better than any plate by a huge amount, it's now on par with Carapace of Sun and Shadow)
[Band of Ruinous Delight]
[Choker of Serrated Blades] (it's just awful now)
[Crown of Anasterian]
[Hard Khorium Battleplate]
[Leggings of the Immortal Night]

Those are items you might to no longer pursue or if you have alternatives that might be easier to acquire, look elsewhere first.

 

dr_AllCOM3

No.
[Warharness of Reckless Fury] > [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] > [Bladed Chaos Tunic]
It goes on like that for almost all Plate items.

 

Arantis

Well i can't say i didnt expect such an answer but meh.. So the 'to do' list now includes ditching every arp item that was hard obtained from BT up to KJ it seems. I still dont understand what they were thinking when decided to implement this change now and not after wotlk. I have read every (almost) post about the related to next patch spec performance and i cant find a conclussion yet, especially since i didn't have the time and opportunity to test myself. The impression i have so far is to find plenty of rigid lionseyes and replace arp with haste after getting hit to 21%. I have the feeling that crit also becomes better now but seriously this change at this stage of the game is really pissing me.

 

Grayson Carlyle

No matter what I do, Carapace comes out first (the hit rating being the biggest contributor) at ~212 SEP, then Warharness at ~203, Hard Khorium Battleplate at ~183 and finally Bladed Chaos at ~182. AttT included. Which is ass-tastic cause I have my guilds only Bladed Chaos Tunic...

Leggings of the Immortal Night at ~193 and Felfury Legplates at ~192. Endless Rage at ~152 followed up by Leggings of Divine Retribution at ~140.

Hard Khorium Battlefists at ~151, Borderland Paingrips at ~133 and Gloves of Immortal Dusk at ~115 (I'm going to cry).

Duplicitous Guise at ~184, Helm of the Illidari Shatterer at ~168, Coif of Alleria at ~163, Cursed Vision of Sargeras at ~162 and Crown of Anasterian at ~155. Illidari Shatterer moved up quite a bit, but otherwise the same.

Obviously all Sunwell set pieces are best in slot, there's no competition.

Crossbow of Relentless Strikes at ~52 leads Golden Bow of Quel'thalas at ~49 and Blade of Life's Inevitability at ~48.5.

That covers pretty much all leather/plate issues. Unless you're a leatherworker, plate is almost always the better choice. Our best ranged weapon also has no competition.

 

Lapp

Agreed; Armor Penetration is in a very sorry state at the moment. If they fixed it such that it subtracted the % from the base armor rather than debuffed armor, it might be competitive again.

While on the topic of gear... I was wondering if any of you had seen my thread about the problems with plate itemization on the WoW Beta Forums. I've received plenty of support from various people, and similar threads have sprung up, as well. It's a fairly major issue, I think, for both those who wear plate and those who don't (as the latter suffer from unneeded competition on leather gear).

Here it is: [Feedback]Serious Plate Itemization Concerns

It links to a prior thread that I had from a while back; this newer one is somewhat more consolidated. Still no response from Blue, but I'm stubbornly hopeful :-\

Anyway, was just curious to see your stances on this issue, as the average level of intelligence is obviously much higher here than there :P

 

Cranbery

With the state armor pen is in, would it be more wise to use a [Guardian's Band of Triumph] or even a [Band of the Eternal Champion] over [Signet of Primal Wrath] or [Angelista's Revenge]?

I have to say I'm pretty disappointed with the two drastic chances about armor penetration and sword spec. Armor pen went from something to be desired to something that I no longer want to itemize for. I waited a good while for CE to drop only to realize I now find myself farming badges for [The Blade of Harbingers] or [Shivering Felspine]

 

Xai

With tomorrow's patch, it seems, as I'm sure you are all aware already, that ArP's value is greatly diminished. I didn't see anything on it up until this point, so I'll ask the noob question. Would it be preferable now to go dual mongoose, stacking crit for more dw procs as well as better flurry uptime (considering the 3.5 speed average of 2hs) and of course, rampage uptime over the current norm of Executioner / mongoose?