Future of a DPS Warrior - Page 2

Emeraude · 05/29/07, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Legedi

I'm curious what the numbers are behind what makes a 20/41 build better than a 31/31 (or 30/31) 2H fury build. From what I see it comes down between a weapon spec (using axe right now, and +5% crit seems very good with flurry) and 5% damage, or +10% AP and +250 AP. Or does that +3% hit also help? I forget how much a 2Her needs against bosses.

Where is someone good with excel when you need them?

The amount of AP you get over the weapon specs makes it worth it.

Grayson Carlyle · 05/29/07, 7:32 PM

The breaking point for where 10% AP/Rampage is better than 5% more damage from a weapon spec/2H spec is in the 2300-2400 range. On the lower end of that if your weapon DPS is on the lower end or you have a faster 2H.

But it also seems everyone forgets about +4 weapon skill, not huge, but still some DPS.

Personally, when I'm DPS I'm always 33/28 with imp TC and Demo so that I'm adding more to the raid than just my personal DPS. That and Rampage is a PIA to keep up without axe spec.

When I solo I like to cast Battle Shout after I get Flurry, just to see how long I can keep Flurry up. 40s is common, but my longest is 105s. In a raid scenario with more rage, it's damn well near 100%.

lazerpewpew · 05/29/07, 11:41 PM

But if you get a glancing blow on your normal attack (white damage), you won't be able to generate enough rage for the next slam/WW/BT/HS.

Originally Posted by Gronx

I've been wondering about exactly that problem, the heroic strike threat vs damage issue, that we even now, as dual wield dps warriors, runs into.

So, what can we, with the way the warrior mechanics currently works, do?

Right now i'm playing around with 2-hand fury, which actually seems to have alot of potential, and before you go "dual wield or MS" on me like the typical 2 hand arms warrior.

What i'm currently playing around with is basically to try to apply the basics of how hunters dps' to a warrior mechanics, centered around the use of improved slam.

Improved slam is one awesome skill, not AP normalised, and when timed perfectly, you get a full non normalised attack, affected by impale, capable of proc'ing windfury (with a 2hander), for 0.5 seconds of lost auto attack time, if you apply it directly after a white attack.

Applying a slam after each auto attack is the basics of what i try to do currently, then apply a special afterwards, and wait those 0.3 seconds for the next white attack.

This also gives you an allmost 99% flurry uptime, as you basically have 2 special attacks for each white attack, all of those capable of proc'ing flurry, which means that the calculation for flurry would start to say 100% - the chance that i haven't landed a crit the last 8 attacks.

assuming a 100% flurry uptime, this gives the 2 hand fury warrior, with a speed 3.7 weapon, an attack cycle looking like:

Auto - Slam -  BT  - Auto - Slam -  WW  - Auto - Slam -  BT  - Auto - Slam ....
 0.0   0.5     1.5    3.46   3.96   4.96   6.92   7.42   7.92   9.88   10.38 ...

You lose some BT damage here, as there'll be (if you add a bit of lag) 7 seconds or so between the BT's, there's also the issue of WW only being applied roughly each 14 seconds, due to the cooldown not being up when the next "time to apply a non BT speciel" comes up, this gives time to apply shouts + rampage though, so not exactly wasted dps time.

A sidenote here, is that this build benefits greatly from an additional haste effect, a dragonspine trophy proc for example, would put the auto attack timer at 2.38, which with the 0.5 sec slam cast time, would give you a close to optimal 3 second cycle, with auto - slam - special - ready for next auto attack.

Lets try to look at the differences between 2 hand fury and dual wield fury again:

Dual wield gets:

Roughly 20% more white damage (was what playing around with the spreadsheet gave me)
A higher and more steady rage income (which is close to a non issue, as our ragegain in a raid enviroment is high)
the ability to apply a weapon buff to your offhand

Two hand fury gets:

A higher flurry uptime
Benefits more from windfury, as the build will be landing roughly as many mainhand + special attacks as the dual wield fury build, while proc'ing a big fat 2 hander hit, instead of a one hander attack.
A pure damage to threat ratio, without HS adding additional threat.
The bonus from 3/5 two hander specialisation, which you can get without missing any important PvE dps talents
A higher percentage of damage comming from specials, thus making impale a better dps talent.
No low offhand crit's canceling one's deep wound effect, thus making deep wound actually tick for ok ammounts relatively often.

In a lagfree enviroment, this seems like two hand fury is more than capable of doing equal damage to a dual wield fury build, but if you take lag and human errors into equation, it becomes way more even.

I've just started to play around with two hand fury, but it seems viable, i'm still cancelling some of my auto attacks due to making mistakes with slam and such, and still i'm close to the level of dps i had while dualwielding before.

Aside from all this, it's also fun, at least to me, to try out something new, and this actually demands more from the warrior than just spamming skills, it requires some ammount of timing and adapting to haste proc's and such, thus making it more fun to play, at least for me.

I sadly cannot find a dps spreadsheet taking these things into account, and since Excel hates me, the one i worked on myself, seems to have been corrupted, yay. But, if any of you could run this theory through a spreadsheet, it would be nice to see, even though i probably will be proved wrong in saying that 2 hand fury have as much a potential for dps as dual wield, without as much threat.

Voxx · 05/30/07, 12:33 AM

Well, I guess it's good to know I'm not delusional about seeing a problem with future scaling. As to all the people discussing 2h fury vs 33/28 (Blood Frenzy). I'd personally do what one of the other warriors in here said, take Improved Thunderclap, Improved Demoralizing Shout and Blood Frenzy. Just so I don't feel like so much dead weight when my dps isn't spectacular.

panny · 05/30/07, 2:07 AM

Here are two WWS parses you guys might find interesting:
Pre-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=alywu6fm5djhm
Post-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=hz1dxhnlbxy5q
Look at the Gruul attempts or kills otherwise you'll get their DPS while tanking trash/etc :P

Yatcher is DW Fury with the T2 BS axe, and Bigdumbcow is MS with imp. Slam with a Gorehowl. I think both had the same buffs each time, though I can't be sure.

Emeraude · 05/30/07, 3:21 AM

Originally Posted by panny

Here are two WWS parses you guys might find interesting:
Pre-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=alywu6fm5djhm
Post-patch: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=hz1dxhnlbxy5q
Look at the Gruul attempts or kills otherwise you'll get their DPS while tanking trash/etc :P

Yatcher is Fury with the T2 BS axe, and Bigdumbcow is MS with imp. slam with a Gorehowl. I think both had the same buffs each time, though I can't be sure.

Why isn't Yatcher using slam? Like at all?

I see Heroic Strike, and Cleave, but not Slam >_>

Randor · 05/30/07, 3:46 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Why isn't Yatcher using slam? Like at all?

I see Heroic Strike, and Cleave, but not Slam >_>

Is he pvp-specced with imp intercept vs imp slam?

Emeraude · 05/30/07, 3:49 AM

Originally Posted by Randor

Is he pvp-specced with imp intercept vs imp slam?

I mean he said he was 2-hand Fury, I'd assume if you go 2-hand Fury for pure DPS you'd pick up Imp Slam.

2-hand Fury kinda kills my innerchild in PvP, it worked in WoW Classic with smaller HP pools and smaller heals, in BC healing is so powerful and HP pools are too high, you need MS, errrr, but that's a discussion for another thread obviously.

Randor · 05/30/07, 4:19 AM

Looking at talent builds, I wonder how 27-34 would compare with 20-41. Even with Flurry and +haste, Rampage isn't too attractive for me with a 2hander. Basically it would be imp Zerker vs weapon spec and Sweeping Strikes.

Domoniac · 05/30/07, 4:28 AM

2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple! Yes both form can get a handle on it, but fury with a 2h seems to be a waste. My raid spec DW AP was 3800+ and with a 2h'er it was about 2700ish. The constant hits and barrages of maneuvres were fun to do.

I may be wrong with this, maybe not. Please extrapolate on this one, as i fear a 2h MS warrior doesnt have a place right now other than pvp.

aI am curious on experiences and sheets or redundant stats and mathematics is not too appealing. Concrete proof

panny · 05/30/07, 5:48 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Why isn't Yatcher using slam? Like at all?

I see Heroic Strike, and Cleave, but not Slam >_>

Sorry I should have specifed.

Yatcher is DW Fury with Black Planar Edge and (I think) Vindicator's Brand. BDC is MS with imp. Slam.

Randor · 05/30/07, 6:00 AM

Originally Posted by Domoniac

2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple!

I may be wrong with this, maybe not. Please extrapolate on this one, as i fear a 2h MS warrior doesnt have a place right now other than pvp.

You probably also think that priests can't dps, Fury warriors can't pvp and druids are only meant for off-healing.

Anyways, a properly geared DW Fury warrior with enough crit for perma-flurry, enough attack power to make bloodthirsts do any damage AND enough hit to avoid strings of misses will likely do more damage on a single target mob.

But on mutiple mobs/packs, or a target that bleeds a MS or 2hand Fury warrior will shine. Also, Blood Frenzy helps the entire party on bleedable mobs. Ask a feral druid or a rogue if they'd rather be grouped with a MS warrior with Blood Frenzy or a DW Fury one.

Also, I find that a 2hand warrior will likely be more inclined to offer other benefits for a raid, demo shout, PH, imp thunderclap then a DWer focusing on maximizing their DPS cycles, but your mileage may vary on that.

And you say that you enjoyed DW; well, many people enjoy swinging a big ole weapon around. And the damage can be done with a imp Slam build. With Flurry, Mongoose procs and whatnot, I can swing my Mooncleaver around at around 2.4 seconds, crit steadily with almost 40% crit rate self-buffed and still hit slams and MSes in the 2k neighborhood with 1990 attack power (atm) self-buffed. Throw in pots, consumables and raid buffs, and it only gets better.

But rather than saying take a 2hand-wielding warrior over a DWer, I think a great melee group can consist of both (and 2 cheers for Commanding AND Battle shouts for a melee group. Get a MSers, a shammy, a feral druid, a rogue and either another rogue or a DW fury warrior and you have a potent melee group.

Emeraude · 05/30/07, 7:07 AM

Originally Posted by Domoniac

2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple! Yes both form can get a handle on it, but fury with a 2h seems to be a waste.

It irritates me to death everytime I see a post from someone who says that 2-handers for a Warrior are nothing more then play things for PvP and aren't true DPS. My guild has a tradition of having many 2-hand Fury Warriors, they top damage meters, they are infinately easier to gear up and keep competitive with the rest of the raid with the right skill/experience. I myself am keeping that tradition alive and well. Does DW come out ahead? Perhaps. Does 2-hand put up close or similar numbers with a Fury build? Absolutely.

Randor · 05/30/07, 7:42 AM

What's your Fury build? is Rampage viable with a 2hander? Slam spam to max it?

Gronx · 05/30/07, 8:10 AM

Originally Posted by Domoniac

2h MS = PvP DW Fury = PvE .... plain and simple! Yes both form can get a handle on it, but fury with a 2h seems to be a waste. My raid spec DW AP was 3800+ and with a 2h'er it was about 2700ish. The constant hits and barrages of maneuvres were fun to do.

I may be wrong with this, maybe not. Please extrapolate on this one, as i fear a 2h MS warrior doesnt have a place right now other than pvp.

aI am curious on experiences and sheets or redundant stats and mathematics is not too appealing. Concrete proof

First, why should your AP be alot different with a 2 hand fury build? You're not making any kind of sense with regards to that. Aside from that, what exactly are you doing on the Mechanics and Theorycrafting forum again, if you don't like sheets and mathematics? That's basically what this part of the forum is used for, so the not so conservative people here, actually can try to see IF the different fury spec's actually are that different in the end.

The issue brought up here, was specificly the issue with HS being the only good ragedump past BT/WW at cooldowns, and HS adding extra aggro (cleave adds a bit as well), the solution to that might just be two hand fury, which you are writing off as a silly spec.

A thing to keep in mind is, dps scales way better than threat building, so might as well prepare to keep the damage/aggro as high as possible, as it probably will be an issue in the future, even with salvation on.

Graul · 05/30/07, 12:48 PM

It irritates me to death everytime I see a post from someone who says that 2-handers for a Warrior are nothing more then play things for PvP and aren't true DPS. My guild has a tradition of having many 2-hand Fury Warriors, they top damage meters, they are infinately easier to gear up and keep competitive with the rest of the raid with the right skill/experience. I myself am keeping that tradition alive and well. Does DW come out ahead? Perhaps. Does 2-hand put up close or similar numbers with a Fury build? Absolutely.

It irritates me how well I do with a 31/30 build, and I know more AP from deeper Fury would yield bigger slams, but at the cost of 5% damage and 5% crit, and with how I use Slam over just spamming hamstring all day, I like to have a higher crit rate for Flurry. What irritates me is that I was gearing up for DW, and did really good up until the patch. It still does ok, but after the change to Flurry as well as all of the epics being upgraded, my DPS seemed to drop as DW compared to what I do with a Gorehowl now. It's not really as fun for me to just auto attack, slam, instant, auto attack, slam, instant, yet it's doing better until I get a lot better gear than I had before, and my stats before were not exactly slacking. I just finished upgrading my axe to a Wicked Edge of The Planes last night, but I won't even be using it until I finish out grinding Arena points for a new off hand and get both enchanted.

Another thing that annoys me about 2h builds is on trash clearing when something is about to die (or just whenever actually) and it moves right before your last slam lands. It happens a lot, and it's especially bad on any boss encounter that doesn't allow you to just stay in a fixed position the majority of the time. Slam is what makes any 2h build good (and of course Windfury), and if you are whiffing Slams and having an excess of rage at all times, you may as well just go DW and dump rage through HS. I do very good with my current 2h setup, but I also get very annoyed with it while using it. I never got "annoyed" while DW other than the times where I wouldn't crit for 8 seconds and have to build Rampage back up from zero.

Domoniac · 05/30/07, 1:52 PM

Fair enough, it was just what I had on when I hit 70 had one of those 93.x dps 2h'ers and it was slow as hell in questing, and in instances it was hard to maximize its impact because of Blizzard's design to almost eliminate melee. Rogues everywhere were the most frustrated. Alot has changed since then, and as everyone learned the instances you could make it viable to be melee heavy and get it done.

It is deffinitely the build and the player that will make either form of the warrior effective. And I had changed back to protection just before the 2.1 patch as our raid needed it and I was getting annoyed by the dps plate gear available. Pretty much any of the decent gear is raid and heroic only. Which in essence really as a whole screwed the dps warrior over to some degree. Which is probably why I have seen so many in the pvp/arena to get something decent for their damage outputs. There were some good dps quest items however which were nice, but few and far between. Natasha's choker, chestplate of A'dal come to mind.

And on a last note, ya druids, and priests can do very good dps. Even holy priests with smiting can do fairly average dps which surprised me. Not groundbreaking or leader of the group, but more than I would have given them credit for.

Salted · 05/30/07, 4:31 PM

I think this is all based on having Windfury...which is both a valid point, and completely invalid at the same time; like basing your dps off having a feral druid in your group.

I personally have no issues with threat with salvation on. Sure I COULD have Blessing of Might, just like casters COULD have wisdom, but thats what you gotta do to keep your threat down.

As for 2h/1h....back in the day on select fights I could keep ahead of the fury warriors when we all had full BWL loot and I had Ashkandi, but fury had more consistant dps. Its tough to say which is better PvE, but I'd definately lean towards DW fury. When I replaced my Lunar Crescent with The Planar Edge and a 53dps green offhand, my raid boss dps immediately went up. Then the gladiator off-hand put me on top of the charts.

Its tough to judge warriors sometimes, though...there is another fury in my guild with almost equal stats, but WAY behind in dps. Its tough to say if they maintained their buffs, used the right abilities, etc.

Graul · 05/30/07, 6:51 PM

I think this is all based on having Windfury...which is both a valid point, and completely invalid at the same time

Not from the perspective of someone that has been raiding as Horde since release

2h builds are underperformers without WF, or rather, they don't do anywhere near as well as without it compared to DW, that does work better with WF as well, but is pretty good without it too.

Salted · 05/30/07, 8:13 PM

Originally Posted by Graul

Not from the perspective of someone that has been raiding as Horde since release

2h builds are underperformers without WF, or rather, they don't do anywhere near as well as without it compared to DW, that does work better with WF as well, but is pretty good without it too.

On alliance we just got shaman, and its horrible when they drop the spell dmg totem instead of WF.

But thats the thing, my friend plays horde and I'll ask him if he got windfury on the last raid, and 7/10 times he says no, that the shaman just dropped agility or spell damage.

I'll have to pull out my 2h next kara run, see how I do, but I'm guessing without the spec for it, it'll be a wash at best.

Emeraude · 05/30/07, 8:37 PM

I top out meters without Windfury, with a Shaman I can compete with the Rogues, without a Shaman I'm directly behind the Rogues and in front of the casters. It's almost always Rogues->Me->Rest of the Raid.

Ghando · 05/30/07, 8:58 PM

Generalizations like "i top out meters" don't make sense. Every fight is different, every guild is different...without raw numbers (preferably a WWS or at least a screenshot of your SWS) it's meaningless. We've had MS Warriors come in 3rd on Karathress and that's about it in terms of big DPS Warrior numbers. Maybe Karazhan, especially on full clears...but please back things up with numbers.