[Rogue] Haste rating and the spreadsheet

Cloak-SH · 05/29/07, 11:45 PM

First off apologies if this should have gone in the spreadsheet topic, i felt it was broad enough to warrant its own.

Basic info - http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...d+Hand&n=Cloak

During our first morogrim kill I began using haste pots, it was my first time. With two mongoose procs, SnD and the haste pot active I managed to get my OH speed to .58

As exciting as it sounds I decided to check something in the spreadsheet, in game when I pop a speed proc I get a rather unimpressive drop in weaponspeed whereas on the spreadsheet itself it seems that the haste rating is quite independent of current weapon speed.

What I mean by that is using the current version of the spreadsheet when I manually add the haste pot (i put 400 haste rating on my choker of vile intent) I end up with approximately 250 more unbuffed dps. I then put another 400 haste into the equation, manually adding it to my shoulders this time. It turns out that I get ANOTHER 250 unbuffed dps. We all know that because of how haste works (assuming the character sheet is correct) there will be very strong diminishing returns, so what the spreadsheet currently is doing is not taking into effect current weaponspeed when adding haste to items <i think>

With all the new haste items out there, I was particularly concerned about the new meta gem, I was wondering how exactly we can determine a 'true' value to adding more haste beyond SnD and of course when does it become better to use a slower off hand?

For example if X haste rating is going to reduce your OH sword from 1.5 to .78 speed X haste rating will in turn reduce your 2.2 OH weapon much further and be technically a better use of itemization. Especially once we get into the +haste armor items.

It seems to me that the further we go with adding speed the less actual benefit we get from it, there isnt as clear a cap as with hit but there should be an ideal out there for us to try and attain. So perhaps using the spreadsheet to determine gear choices is slightly dicey atm, especially for the meta gem when compared to the agil/crit dmg version.

Disclaimer - I havent the ability with any form of math to help formulate an equation and in all likelihood I cannot help with the actual excel work either.

- this is utilizing the "N" release of the spreadsheet for reference.

Anyways thanks for the input, i know its tuesday, a busy day for all of us.

WibbleNZ · 05/30/07, 12:21 AM

X haste rating has the same effect on a 1.5 speed OH as a 2.2 speed OH. It makes it swing X/15.8 (or w/e the number is) percent faster.

The absolute value of the speed rating is changed by a smaller amount (and may seem to have diminishing returns), but the dps is not. Swinging twice as fast, whether that is 0.75 or 1.1 seconds between attacks, is twice as much dps.

Cloak-SH · 05/30/07, 2:02 AM

Originally Posted by WibbleNZ

X haste rating has the same effect on a 1.5 speed OH as a 2.2 speed OH. It makes it swing X/15.8 (or w/e the number is) percent faster.

The absolute value of the speed rating is changed by a smaller amount (and may seem to have diminishing returns), but the dps is not. Swinging twice as fast, whether that is 0.75 or 1.1 seconds between attacks, is twice as much dps.

Perhaps i should have been clearer :]

What you're saying is correct, and the problem. its % faster, here are some numbers.

Using SnD, Bladeflurry, abacus, and having one mongoose proc active my OH speed is .76
When i add a 400 haste rating pot to that it becomes .58

When im sitting in SC and pop a haste pot my OH speed goes from 1.5 to 1.09

My point is that adding that 400 haste has diminishing returns based on what your current speed is. its CLEARLY less of a dps boost once you've already got a few procs going. Currently the spreadsheet assigns a dps value to +haste and completely ignores any other haste that you currently have equipped it simply tabulates that value as +dps.

While this is a non-issue for :use trinkets as you can time them effectively its more of an issue the more passive +haste you get. Now that we're talking about dual mongoose, dragonspine trophy <god i hope it drops this week> and a thundering skyfire meta you have to take a step back and look to see what is that all actually doing for you.

The issue is going to be compounded once we get into the passive + haste we're seeing on armor as well. Anyways its now 2am and im a 8-5'er.

• Aldriana · 05/30/07, 2:14 AM

Originally Posted by Cloak-SH

My point is that adding that 400 haste has diminishing returns based on what your current speed is. its CLEARLY less of a dps boost once you've already got a few procs going.

Thing is: no it's not. The absolute drop in weapon speed goes down to be sure; but the number of extra attacks you get in a given period of time increases by the same percent regardless of how many other haste effects you have going. If you put on 400 haste rating, you get 35% more white attacks and your dps goes up by 150 (or whatever). If you put on another 400 haste rating, you get another 35% more white attacks, and another 150 dps. The actual speed increase might only be from 1.2 to .7 instead of 1.7 to 1.2 - but either way, it's a 35% increase.

WibbleNZ · 05/30/07, 2:42 AM

I'm just not following the bit that 'we all know' - i.e. that a linear increase in # of attacks leads to a non-linear (indeed strictly less than linear) increase in dps.

There is a relative diminishing return, in that the first 400 HR > 250 dps is a larger % increase than the second, but the same can be said of +hit.

sp00n · 05/30/07, 4:50 AM

Maybe some small calculations will help.

2.0 speed
100 damage per swing

60 seconds
(60/2)*100=
3000 damage


25% faster
----------
2.0/1.25= 1.6  (-0.4)
(60/(2/1.25))*100= 3750
750 damage gain
% of original value: 750/3000= 25%


again 25% faster
----------------
2.0/1.5= 1.33  (-0.27)
(60/(2/1.5))*100= 4500
4500-3750= 750
750 damage gain


another 25% faster
------------------
2.0/1.75= 1.14 (-0.19)
(60/(2/1.75))*100= 5250
5250-4500=
750 damage gain

So it doesn't matter how fast your weapon already is, X% more haste will always net you X% more damage of the original value.

Cloak-SH · 05/30/07, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

Maybe some small calculations will help.

2.0 speed
100 damage per swing

60 seconds
(60/2)*100=
3000 damage


25% faster
----------
2.0/1.25= 1.6  (-0.4)
(60/(2/1.25))*100= 3750
750 damage gain
% of original value: 750/3000= 25%


again 25% faster
----------------
2.0/1.5= 1.33  (-0.27)
(60/(2/1.5))*100= 4500
4500-3750= 750
750 damage gain


another 25% faster
------------------
2.0/1.75= 1.14 (-0.19)
(60/(2/1.75))*100= 5250
5250-4500=
750 damage gain

So it doesn't matter how fast your weapon already is, X% more haste will always net you X% more damage of the original value.

I ran the math for my example ^^

1.5 speed to 1.09 speed is a 27.33% reduction.
.78 speed to .56 speed is a 28.20% reduction.

Differences due to the limitations of the character sheet id assume.

Perhaps it was late and I had a hard time getting my mind around it.

sylvestro · 05/30/07, 2:21 PM

has anyone had the time to test out the new meta gem, as in actual proc rates etc?

Caldar · 05/30/07, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by sylvestro

has anyone had the time to test out the new meta gem, as in actual proc rates etc?

You may want to try the multi-page topic dedicated to that gem:

http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.p...350#post370350

Ichichop · 05/30/07, 3:16 PM

It is painfully obvious that haste rating breaks the current rogue DPS spreadsheet due to it's approximations of proc rates into an "average value" for items such as dragonspine trophy. These average values do not come close to approximating the value of the procs for different values of haste rating and the synergies they give with procs [due to extra attacks from combat potency, white damage and sword spec procs].

Speaking of which, does anyone know if % chance for a item/weapon proc to activate per hit goes down when you gain haste rating?

In terms of using a slower offhand, I agree with the other responders that it is never a good idea. You have no math to back up your statements and most of them are unfortunately very incorrect in regards to haste rating having large diminishing returns. This reminds me of when people thought that increasing damage reduction from 74-75% was worthless because it took so much more armor value than increasing damage reduction from 40-41%. They didn't understand that it is the relative gain! (read: going from 0.55 to 0.50 speed is a LOT better than going from 2.00 to 1.95 speed)

pf · 05/30/07, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Ichichop

It is painfully obvious that haste rating breaks the current rogue DPS spreadsheet due to it's approximations of proc rates into an "average value" for items such as dragonspine trophy. These average values do not come close to approximating the value of the procs for different values of haste rating and the synergies they give with procs [due to extra attacks from combat potency, white damage and sword spec procs].

Speaking of which, does anyone know if % chance for a item/weapon proc to activate per hit goes down when you gain haste rating?

If a trinket is modeled correctly in the spreadsheet, adding haste ratings will work just fine with a trinket like the dragonspine trophy. However, instead of it being modeled correctly, it might be just estimated in which case someone should fix it up correctly.

Anyway, on the topic of the thread. Haste rating does diminish in relative value with each point added, whereas regular % haste modifiers do not have the same relative diminishing return. Simply put, haste rating is additive whereas a haste modifier is multiplicative. Another way of putting it would be 10 haste rating grants you 1% haste at base attack speed, but after say 30% haste worth of haste rating, you still go up by 1% haste, but only gain .77% attack speed instead of 1%.

• Aldriana · 05/30/07, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by pf

If a trinket is modeled correctly in the spreadsheet, adding haste ratings will work just fine with a trinket like the dragonspine trophy. However, instead of it being modeled correctly, it might be just estimated in which case someone should fix it up correctly.

Anyway, on the topic of the thread. Haste rating does diminish in relative value with each point added, whereas regular % haste modifiers do not have the same relative diminishing return. Simply put, haste rating is additive whereas a haste modifier is multiplicative. Another way of putting it would be 10 haste rating grants you 1% haste at base attack speed, but after say 30% haste worth of haste rating, you still go up by 1% haste, but only gain .77% attack speed instead of 1%.

The Rogue DPS spreadsheet has only rough estimates of the value of haste procs (Dragonspine/TSD). The Rogue Gear spreadsheet has a much more detailed model, but it's also sort of buggy right now. I can't speak to the future of the Rogue DPS spreadsheet, but I will say that given another couple of weeks to chase out various bugs and issues, these gems should be modeled with a large degree of accuracy in the Rogue Gear spreadsheet.