[Shaman] Resto-Spec - Page 5

Hamilburg · 07/19/07, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by CureFC

How are you coming up with this number?

The Fel Reaver's Piston's proc healed 10,453 over the course of the fight. Since you exclusively used Chain Heal for this fight and barely overhealed (2%) it should be fairly easy to figure out how much +heal you would need to add to make up the same amount of healing that the piston did.

You had 322 hits of chain heal so let's estimate 110 casts (a few probably didn't heal 3 targets). You need to add 10,453 over 110 casts which is 95 healing done per cast. Chain Heal gets 125% of your +heal when you count all three jumps (which for this fight is a pretty fair assumption). So 95/125 = ~76 +heal worth of healing done by the proc (unless I'm an idiot and did this all wrong, which is quite possible - I'll admit up front that math is not my forte). Adding +heal would spread the healing over 3 targets, rather than put a 500 hp HoT on one person, which may or may not be relevant to you (I'd rather have it spread out and instant, but if the HoT isn't overhealing it's not really a big deal).

I'm ignoring overheal for the comparison, but basically you're looking at a trinket which under optimum conditions adds about as much +heal as Lower City Prayerbook The passive mana/5 is nice, but for regen is largely outweighed by Fathom Brooch, Alchemist's Stone, and I think probably Eye of Gruul.

I'm not saying the Piston is a worthless trinket, just that I don't think it's anywhere in the neighborhood of 250 +heal good. Again, if I totally botched the math and this thing is amazing please correct me.

EDIT: I forgot to count your crits; counting them you actually had 372 hits or in the neighborhood of 124 casts.

10,453/124 = ~84

84/125 = ~67 +heal worth of healing done by the proc. Plus, added straight +heal gets benefit from crit, while the proc does not.

Crud. You're right - and I don't think you counted Purification/Imp Chain Heal. Teach me to try and post from memory. Edit: down to +45 when factoring in 13% crit rate, and the two named talents. Ah well, I took it for the MP5 anyway.

Karnage420 · 07/19/07, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Murderbot

For some time now I've been working on a healing guide for shamans, posted in the WoW shaman forums:

WoW Forums -> Murderbot's Guide to PVE Healing

I am pretty happy with it at this point, but it occurs to me that the most experienced shamans tend to avoid the WoW shaman forums, since it is more or less a cesspool. Therefore, if any of you old pros would take a look and relentlessly nitpick, criticize, and pick it apart I would be quite grateful.

madvillian owns.

Any thoughts on trinkets? I always carry around [Shard of the Scale][Pendant of the Violet Eye][Eye of Gruul][Scarab of the Infinite Cycle].

I frequently change trinkets, probably more than i change underwear. If i am with a shadow priest i tent to stack anything with +healing (scarab and eye of gruul). However, 75% of the time I am the token melee totem bot of the guild, so i stack MP5 - Shard of the scale and Pendant.

Lately though i have dropped my Shard of the Scale all together and am only running with Eye of Gruul and Pendant of the Violet Eye. Am i justified in doing so?

• Binkenstein · 07/19/07, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by Karnage420

madvillian owns.

Any thoughts on trinkets? I always carry around [Shard of the Scale][Pendant of the Violet Eye][Eye of Gruul][Scarab of the Infinite Cycle].

I frequently change trinkets, probably more than i change underwear. If i am with a shadow priest i tent to stack anything with +healing (scarab and eye of gruul). However, 75% of the time I am the token melee totem bot of the guild, so i stack MP5 - Shard of the scale and Pendant.

Lately though i have dropped my Shard of the Scale all together and am only running with Eye of Gruul and Pendant of the Violet Eye. Am i justified in doing so?

I generally stick with [Alchemist's Stone] and then the best trinket I have available for the situation (atm I usually have [Ribbon of Sacrifice] on)

Shard would be good, Pendant I'm not keen on, the Eye could be useful, and the Scarab proc isn't that useful imo.

• Binkenstein · 07/19/07, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by Hamilburg

Hamilynn - WWS

WWS of Void Reaver fight, where I (only Resto shaman) stood in with the melee. 15.3k healed from Nature's Guardian. I believe my Chain Heal clocks in around 10 HPM, so I saved 1500 mana from having NG.

Incidentally, the Fel Reaver's Piston is amazing for this sort of work - I estimated it at being equivalent to +250 healing on this fight.

ouch, 15 NG's in one fight suggests that healing was chaotic >.<

Of course, we tend to have 3+ resto shaman, so they're all sitting in for VR.

kultheel · 07/20/07, 2:39 AM

0/5/56 is getting a pretty bad review (and I largely agree that AK is pretty horrible) - is it potentially worth it to get to 13s CD on Grounding totem? (Good at Vashj/Karathress - haven't seen deeper than VR in TK, so not sure if GT is of much use deeper into 25 man).

While I also like elemental warding, is it even possible that 8/7/46 (Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft or so) is worth considering? Faster GT also has sneaky PvP benefit of course - as does Elemental Warding - but even from a pure PvE perspective - the extra utility can be useful, no?

• Binkenstein · 07/20/07, 7:38 AM

I would say that if re-casting Grounding 2 seconds faster is going to save you, then you probably shouldn't be raiding at the level you are.

Especially since you removed 4 points in Tidal Focus (and used 2 in imp anhk).

Each talent point saves 5.4 mana per CH (10.8mp5), 7.4 per HW (18.5mp5), and 4.4 mana per LHW (14.67mp5), so I would say that most builds that have 10 points in T1 Resto are pretty well reasoned.

Also, it's worth noting that for that talent to be effective, you have to keep using grounding. Currently there are only 2 fights that I use grounding on, and these are Maiden & Fathomlord (of course, Vashj/Kael aren't on the cards at the moment).

Also, it's my firm opinion that there are two talent "pairs" in Restoration, talents which work together, and should always have both maxed or neither. These are Imp HW + Healing Way, and Ancestral Healing + Tidal Mastery. Most people should have the first, but if you take AH without TM is just silly (I barely break 10% crit as it is)

Rugrud · 07/20/07, 8:09 AM

To binkenstein:
I'm trying (and i appreciate ^^) your xls spreadsheet for gear comparison.
there's one thing that is disturbing me, how do you get 1 spell crit = 10 heal???
that seem absolutely wrong for me, and make some silly things happening, like a dps cloth robe being twice as efficient as my healing mail chest...
Just a typo i think, could you correct it if possible?
Thanks in advance.

Teewee · 07/20/07, 8:51 AM

Originally Posted by Karnage420

madvillian owns.

Any thoughts on trinkets? I always carry around [Shard of the Scale][Pendant of the Violet Eye][Eye of Gruul][Scarab of the Infinite Cycle].

I frequently change trinkets, probably more than i change underwear. If i am with a shadow priest i tent to stack anything with +healing (scarab and eye of gruul). However, 75% of the time I am the token melee totem bot of the guild, so i stack MP5 - Shard of the scale and Pendant.

Lately though i have dropped my Shard of the Scale all together and am only running with Eye of Gruul and Pendant of the Violet Eye. Am i justified in doing so?

I'd stick with Eye of Gruul and Pendant of the Violet Eye. Specially if you have [Totem of the Maelstrom]. If you spam healing wave rank 1, it's a free cast due to totem, but it still stacks enlightenment . You'll get your regular MP5, your spirit regen, and the enlightenment mana. Generally it's near 1k extra mana at the end of that.

Iol · 07/20/07, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Teewee

If you spam healing wave rank 1, it's a free cast due to totem, but it still stacks enlightenment . You'll get your regular MP5, your spirit regen, and the enlightenment mana. Generally it's near 1k extra mana at the end of that.

It's also free keeping up Healing way, and if crit, putting up Ancestral Healing.

Siggidzweie · 07/20/07, 10:58 AM

If you spam healing wave rank 1, it's a free cast due to totem

The discription of the Trinket says, that free spells won't trigger the trinkets proc. Are you shure, that it works? In Addition to that, it's not so cool, if you do nothing within those 20 seconds and casting Healing Wave rk 1 ist like doing nothing, when real heals are needed.

tedv · 07/20/07, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

Also, it's worth noting that for that talent to be effective, you have to keep using grounding. Currently there are only 2 fights that I use grounding on, and these are Maiden & Fathomlord (of course, Vashj/Kael aren't on the cards at the moment).

How would grounding totem help on Kael'thas? It can't absorb a Pyroblast, can it? And it's not like Capernium is so hard you need to ground her spells.

Illundai · 07/20/07, 11:20 AM

Nope, I don't see the point of dropping Grounding on Kael either, seems like a waste of a totem to me :P.

Phorac · 07/20/07, 12:07 PM

I took Gurg's advice long ago with 8/0/53 and haven't changed since. I also played around with Nature's Guardian early on and refuse to play without it. There are too many examples of where NG + Elemental Warding has saved me from a mistake or something unlucky. I'll take duribility over 500 mana any day.

I dropped Healing Grace a while back, but noticed I had to watch my healing aggro on fights like Tidewalker, Magtheridon and Vashj a little more. Are there any fights in Hyjal/BT where threat reduction would be nice to have?

Side Note: Eye of Gruul will proc from Earth Shield when you have it on yourself. I'm not completely sure if another Earth Shield proc will consume the buff.

Jezele · 07/20/07, 12:11 PM

The only downside to 8/0/53, at least for the level of raiding that I'm at (Kara + Maulgar in a fairly casual-friendly guild) is that it forces a choice of losing improved reincarnation or sacrificing points from nature's guardian (or ancestral healing/healing grace, depending on your priorities). I realize that reincarnation is basically a wipe recovery tool once you're solidly into 25-man content, but as one of the better healers on our Kara runs, I quite often need to pop the reincarnation mid-fight and have enough mana to still be effective.

I'm currently running 0/5/56, but if/when I do make the switch to 8/0/53, where would you suggest I pull from if I wanted to keep imp. reincarnation? I'm likely to be #1 or #2 on the healing meters for our 25-man raids, so aggro isn't a non-issue at this point.

◊ Gwaihir · 07/20/07, 12:14 PM

Nothing in Karazhan or Gruul's Lair/Mag is really agro sensitive at all. I would say healing grace is entirely un-needed in those zones. Healing grace is really more insurance for running 5 mans with sloppy CCs/Bad tanks, or Morogrim/Vashj.

Edit: Also worth noting, is that if you have Nature's Guardian, it generally much better for you to get agro and take a hit from a loose mob rather than a priest or druid.You have 10k armor, and if it takes you to 30% you have auto-fade and an automatic heal to give the tank or CC some time to get whatever is on you, off you. Generally nothing short of a boss will one shot you- if a boss is hitting you then your raid is already wiping.

◊ Praetorian · 07/20/07, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Siggidzweie

The discription of the Trinket says, that free spells won't trigger the trinkets proc. Are you shure, that it works? In Addition to that, it's not so cool, if you do nothing within those 20 seconds and casting Healing Wave rk 1 ist like doing nothing, when real heals are needed.

HW1 isn't a true "free" spell. It works. Also, right, obviously if you need to be spamming real heals of course stopping to do lots of HW1 is unwise. But if there's any sort of lull in the action, it's a very useful thing to do.

kultheel · 07/20/07, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Binkenstein

I would say that if re-casting Grounding 2 seconds faster is going to save you, then you probably shouldn't be raiding at the level you are.

Especially since you removed 4 points in Tidal Focus (and used 2 in imp anhk).

Each talent point saves 5.4 mana per CH (10.8mp5), 7.4 per HW (18.5mp5), and 4.4 mana per LHW (14.67mp5), so I would say that most builds that have 10 points in T1 Resto are pretty well reasoned.

Also, it's worth noting that for that talent to be effective, you have to keep using grounding. Currently there are only 2 fights that I use grounding on, and these are Maiden & Fathomlord (of course, Vashj/Kael aren't on the cards at the moment).

The frost shock from the shaman has a 12 second cooldown I believe at Karathress, so GT every 13 seconds instead of 15 results in a significant decrease in the number of frost shocks your tank eats. Likewise, grounding for P1/P3 on the MT at Vashj, I believe the 13 sec CD makes it feasible to ground all the shocks from her.

I agree the resto part of the build isn't as finely tuned as it should be, Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is probably a lot closer, but I think you've been a little dismissive of the benefit of the imp. GT. Especially if you are mostly on pan raid, Ancestral Healing doesn't really seem to shine as a great investment in talents. As for Tidal Mastery, healing crits are just something I've always had a love-hate relationship with. They can get you out of a bind when you least expect it, but so often lead to just overheal, that I'm never too excited about investing points there.

◊ Praetorian · 07/20/07, 2:20 PM

You can ground 100% of Vashj's shocks with untalented Grounding.

kultheel · 07/20/07, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

You can ground 100% of Vashj's shocks with untalented Grounding.

Ah, wasn't aware of this (have not been in shaman form at Vashj). Out of curiousity, does the cooldown ever seem tight? (stomp totem, shock eats it a second or two later or so)?

◊ Praetorian · 07/20/07, 2:28 PM

Not if you drop the first totem right at the start of p1/p3, and then redrop as soon as it dies or 1-2 seconds later. I often am sitting there with my cooldown up waiting for her to kill the old totem so I can redrop.

kultheel · 07/20/07, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Not if you drop the first totem right at the start of p1/p3, and then redrop as soon as it dies or 1-2 seconds later. I often am sitting there with my cooldown up waiting for her to kill the old totem so I can redrop.

Without Arena to justify it then (and given this is really a pure PvE discussion), probably not worth it then. Or let a enhance shammy worry about it. <re_lurk>

Karnage420 · 07/20/07, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by Teewee

I'd stick with Eye of Gruul and Pendant of the Violet Eye. Specially if you have [Totem of the Maelstrom]. If you spam healing wave rank 1, it's a free cast due to totem, but it still stacks enlightenment . You'll get your regular MP5, your spirit regen, and the enlightenment mana. Generally it's near 1k extra mana at the end of that.

Yes thats actually exactly what I do. While it is a "waste" of 20 seconds, at the end of it I'm stitting at 3k mana that I didn't have before.

Its really a great little trick but sometimes its hard to find the time to pull it off on such healing intensive fights.

It also helps quite a bit that relics can be swapped in and out of combat, so in fights where I dont cast HW at all the trick can still be pulled off.

doul · 07/20/07, 9:07 PM

I've been playing 0/0/61 for quite a while, but been looking at Elemental Warding with jealousy.
Dropping 3 points from Totemic Focus won't be very hard, but the last 8 makes me ponder.

Nature's Guardian is very good, and saves for both pve and pvp as many have witnessed.
Focused Mind seems to become better next patch when buffed to 10/20/30%, but I'm not really sure how much silence stuff that's flying around in endgame (guild is progressing in MT/BT and I'll hopefully start raiding for real soon).
Healing Grace feels nice with all adds that's spawning, and this seems to be happening in MT/BT as well, so that one's probably nice to keep.
Improved Reincarnation is something I specced into a long time ago, pre TBC, and now I feel like a total gimp without it. The cooldown isn't that big issue, but the 20->40% extra mana/hp when ressing means a lot to me, but it seems hardly anyone else likes it. Is that because you don't die, don't res or just don't like the talent?

I'd love some hints about how useful those "non-essential" talents are in late raiding nowadays.

Daidalos · 07/21/07, 2:09 AM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

Not if you drop the first totem right at the start of p1/p3, and then redrop as soon as it dies or 1-2 seconds later. I often am sitting there with my cooldown up waiting for her to kill the old totem so I can redrop.

I used to have 0/5/56 spec but my gm asked me to get enhancing totems so I reluctantly respeced since I loved my natures guardian n other nice things I got. I do find the 2 secs of grounding totem useful. While its true that you frequently don't need the 10 sec cooldown I find it very handy in phase 3 vashj where things are more chaotic and its possible to be rooted and the tank has to move out of range due to poison clouds. here I find myself running after the tank and throwing down a new grounding very often. This is esp helpful if you don't have an OT and makes your job a lil easier. Absolutely necessary? no. Situationally very handy? yes. The actual increase in dps is minor from the totems but the agi and str is handy for feral druids, hunters, and prot wars. I'd say my old spec was perfectly fine but a bit more "selfish" (i'm not saying thats a bad thing since being alive with slightly more mana from totem dropping is good for everyone) I've adjusted to my new spec and I like the fact my totems are more useful to the raid i'd say I might prefer this spec over my old one. Again situational tho.

• Binkenstein · 07/22/07, 4:15 PM

Originally Posted by Rugrud

blah blah

Quoted for posting the same thing twice (just post in one thread dude).

Originally Posted by Phorac

I dropped Healing Grace a while back, but noticed I had to watch my healing aggro on fights like Tidewalker, Magtheridon and Vashj a little more. Are there any fights in Hyjal/BT where threat reduction would be nice to have?

I can say that HG helped with Void Reaver. Heck, I was generating so much heal agro I dropped Tranquil Air to be safe. (standing in and CH spamming = win)

Originally Posted by kultheel

The frost shock from the shaman has a 12 second cooldown I believe at Karathress, so GT every 13 seconds instead of 15 results in a significant decrease in the number of frost shocks your tank eats. Likewise, grounding for P1/P3 on the MT at Vashj, I believe the 13 sec CD makes it feasible to ground all the shocks from her.

I agree the resto part of the build isn't as finely tuned as it should be, Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is probably a lot closer, but I think you've been a little dismissive of the benefit of the imp. GT. Especially if you are mostly on pan raid, Ancestral Healing doesn't really seem to shine as a great investment in talents. As for Tidal Mastery, healing crits are just something I've always had a love-hate relationship with. They can get you out of a bind when you least expect it, but so often lead to just overheal, that I'm never too excited about investing points there.

So spend 8 points for 1-2 fights? Amazing talent investment there. I'm not saying the talent is bad, I'm saying the point investment is.

Also, try convincing your tank that you're dropping AH. Go on, dare you. But if you don't use AH, then yes, crits are next to useless.