Valtteri

Hi, new to the boards and somewhat new to the process of building a character's stats towards a specific purpose. I did some searching around but could not really find a definitive answer to the question I am about to pose. If you know of a post/source, please feel free to point me in that direction, as I know there is already a lot of covered info on these boards.

Firstly, I am a somewhat casual player, who is trying to gear himself towards tanking heroics in the near future. I am not a hardcore raider running Kara/Gruuls.

My question is about resilience. Firstly, is this a PvP and PvE based stat? Secondly, from what I understand, at 490+ DEF you become basically "uncrittable" (for lack of a better term, I know there is no such thing) so, if resilience DOES come into play in PvE, at 493DEF, does it even matter?

Again, forgive me if this has been covered. I did a good deal of searching before posting, but I could have missed something.

Thanks in advance.

 

diospadre

Resilience will do you no good when you are at 490 def. What it is good for is plugging the gap when you are in resist gear, or wearing a gladiator set while DPSing in dangerous situations where you want to be crit immune.

Of course if you're just tanking heroics being crit immune is neither difficult nor necessary, so don't worry a whole lot about it.

 

Valtteri

That is what I suspected, thanks!

 

Darkmantle

I had lvl 6 mobs beat on my lvl 48 priest for over 1200 hits and didn't recieve a crit. I can't be bothered digging up the screenshot because its buried in the archives.

Looking at the WWS thread if you look at the fights where a boss mob is only beating on MT's you will see they never crit. There have been reports of the occassional annomoly with duel weilding mobs like the malicious instructors and romulo however for the vast majority of raid situations tanks with 490 defense or equivalent will not get crit, ever. If they did crit it would be very noticeable. Post 13 growths gruul critting is a metric shit load of damage and it has just never happened to our tanks..

 

suicuique

I used to say the same.
3 Weeks ago though I was critted by Magtheridon.
At that very moment I had 500+ Def, was not using a potion, shield block was active and I was facing the mob.
I can provide a screenshot of that.

Suppose this was the rumoured 0.0001 (whatever low) percentage that a crit chance remains.

 

Khram

(Most) mobs equal to your own level have a 5% chance to critically hit you. For mobs 3 levels above you (ie, bosses) this is 5.6% (0.2 per level). 490 Defense is the point at which you will decrease the chance you are critically hit by 5.6%, hence the term "crit-immune". The post above is an example that there is always a chance to recieve a crit.

 

Crazypie

Could it be a possible mistake of hitting the X button while tanking, causing you to sit down? I have been crit by malicious instructors but I cannot say for a fact that it wasn't cause by an accidental mistake on my part.

I have never been crit by a high level raid mob (nightbane, prince, gruul, maulgar, etc.)

 

suicuique

I have thought about this possibility. And since I have no fraps I cannot be 100% sure, but since sitting down is quite a prominent visible animation, I think my teammates would have reported it to me.

As to how often I have seen such a crit happening: This would have been the first I *noticed* (as it was quite large and was the cause for a wipe, though not the killing blow) in all the times I have been "critimmune". Hence I kept it in my memory (and screenshots of my combatlog)

 

• Chicken

I've heard of a lot of people noticing getting crit by Malicious Instructors, so it's doubtful there's a mass epidemic of people accidentally sitting down while tanking them.

They're just one of few mobs that has an above-standard crit rate, kind of how there's mobs too which you'll glance on or get crushed by despite them not having the necessary level difference.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

Ridyll

For a short while there was a bug where you wouldn't be able to block (shield went to your back) while 'casting' (even instant cast spells), such as Demo shout or thunderclap.

Of course this would only allow the hit to be a crush, and not a crit. So I'd be curious to see the ss of Magtheridon critting you with 490+ defense.

 

suicuique

I've been puzzled lately about the "crit immunity" thing.

Yesterday we tried Vashj (still haven't downed her) and she was happily critting me time after time. In one fight I was critted no less than 3 times in phase1 by her.
That was with having def at 515 ... you can see my gear at http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...as&n=Suicuique

Sadly I had no combat logging addon installed so I cannot give logs as a proof. All I have are two screenshots that show 2 singular occurences of being crit by her. I can only assure that thist has happend quite a few times yesterday.

Now my question:
Am I dense about the crit mechanics? Have I missed something? Crit immunity, as I understand it, should only depend on def level. I do not have to face the mob, do I? (Because I sometimes was directly in her hitbox and cannot assure that to be the case).
I did not sit down by accident though (I have unassigned the hotkey for that). I did not use potions in fight. Still I was crit several times in the course of the evening.

Have anybody else observed some strange crit behavior? Does Vashj have a higher crit chance than 6.6% against Lvl70 targets? Is that a bug at work?
I know that there is not supposed to be a 100% crit immunity, but e.g. in Naxx I can not remember being crit a single time. I cannot be that unlucky now. Can I?

I'm planning to use some logging tools next time we visit her. But now I just cannot explain what happened. Curious if someone else has been noticing such trends lately or if I am the only one (then I'm doing something very wrong).

 

Hoonboof

Could you post the screenshots?

:goon2:

 

Liar

Does Vashj by any chance dual wield? I remember reading some earlier threads about DWing mobs critting players that should have been crit immune (i.e. the big dual/quad wielding Shivian mobs in SL come to mind).

 

suicuique

I'm at work now. I'll post them when I get home.

 

Dots

This 'I was crit with 490+ def' is slowly becoming a trend similar to 'Onyxia deep breaths more'.

I have yet to be crit by any raid boss while at 490+ defense. The only mobs that ever did crit me were the known dual wielding mobs, this occurance has been reported by multiple people.
Lady Vashj does not dual wield by the way.

 

wiseman

One thing to keep in mind is if you are purely tank, the above is true. However if you have some fury in you... having some resilience can cause you to proc enrage while tanking because of the recent changes.

It seems that if Joe Tank has 493 defense and 43 resilience, he will proc enrage even though the defense makes him crit immune. This lends to the theory that resilience is applied first, then defense afterwards.

 

• Chicken

That's correct yes, Resilience even causes procs on chance on getting crit talents which it would normally be impossible for it to proc on. Mob spells spells in particular are a good example.

Outside of resist fights a plate tank using Resilience is quite rare though.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

seul

Some while ago i got into that discussion (weather Defense can provide crit immunity or no), so
i decided to go and try it. Might as well share my findings here:

With a base defense skill of 350 on my Paladin (and no +DR from items) i should be uncrittable
against any opponent who's weapon skill rating is 225 or lower (350 - (5 / 0.04)) (5% base
chance to receive a crit, each point of defense reduces that by 0.04%).
Mob weapon skill is solely on the Mob's level (Weaponskill = Moblevel * 5), so a Level 45 mob
would have 225 weapon skill. To be on the safe side, i ran my test against Level 42 mobs only,
which, if the assumption "Defense makes you uncrittable" holds true, should be unable to land
critical strikes on me (with 350 defense).

So i went to SoS and gathered up a bunch (11) of level 42 murlocs (Marsh Murlocs and Marsh
Inksweepers, non-dualwielding). I queued up a selfheal Macro and went AFK for 35 minutes.

During those 35 minutes the murlocs got 8618 hits in on me, and out of those hits 25 were
critical strikes (~ 0.29%).



So unless my assumptions and/or my test setup are faulty this pretty much shows that you can't
achieve crit immunity solely by stacking up Defense.

What surprised me is the high %age of critical strikes i received. I've heard reports of having
a rest crit chance of somewhere around 0.01% in other test setups, so i didnt expect my test
to show a critrate thats 20 times higher than that.

 

◊ Asmik

Interesting... Would it be possible to get you to make a second test with higher defense? If you increased your defense in a meaningful way, and still got crit, then there might be something to this.

 

seul

Yes, i might do that - since i figured out why my results are that far off the rest crit chance that
tanks have been reporting: I didnt wear a shield

 

DarKNecross

Here are the best explanations I've seen for this question:
and
I'm merely quoting this, so any inaccuracies aren't on my shoulders!

http://crimson-guild.com

 

Kazanir

[Mechanics] Impossible mob crits?

Note the SECOND picture I have posted which is of a NON-dual-wield mob, a Cabal Fanatic (the first is of the well-known Instructor) critting me when I have more than enough def/resi to eliminate all crits, especially against a level 71 mob. Note that the corpse targetted in the picture is not the mob that crit me; as I recall, the Fanatic that crit me doesn't DW.

I'd like to see Suicuique's screenshots and see if there is anything we can find that's amiss.

'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. I told you. This is bigger than a war. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.

You can come with me. I can protect you.

 

gia

Heh, I once tanked Kara all the way from aran to prince phase 2 with full gladiator. I had forgot to swap item sets and was shapeshifted into a pirate so I didn't notice. It actually wasn't that bad, I even tanked the double fleshbeast pulls without an offtank.

We did wipe at prince phase 2, but even though there was a huge stress on healing, the reason was the usual randomness with infernals and people new to the fight getting killed while enfeebled.

Needless to say, I was quite embarrassed when I noticed what happened

 

Dots

Not to be nitpicking (and I could very well be wrong with this assumption), but defense + resilience might just act a little different than 490+ defense.
I would like to see Suicuique's screenshots as well.

 

seul

The only reason why it appears that dual-wielding mobs have a higher "critrate" on 490+ tanks
is Shield Block. My tests have shown a 0.3% rest crit chance at the defense cap when _not_
using a shield. Of course, on a Raid tank, the "real" chance to catch a crit will be much much
lower due to the uptime of Shieldblock. On dualwielding mobs the Uptime of Shieldblock is
lower, thus is appears that they're critting more, but they arent