I'm confused with what you mean by this. Are the CD's shared or somehow the buff doesn't work properly with other on use trinkets.
[Memento of Tyrande] is great but every single healer wants on of these =|. "Picking it up for later" isn't really a possibility.
Sadly, I vendored my [Oshu'gun Relic], and would you still use it over a [Zandalarian Hero Charm]? In any fight without the possibility of lifebloom stacking, I would most likely sub out the trinket for my lower city anyway (i.e. bloodboil), or is it good enough to use one of my restores.
Also I've been considering having a weapon swap with lots of +heal to start buffed lifeblooms, anyone had any experience with doing this and is it viable.
I'm using a [Apostle of Argus] with a spellsurge and just switching out to my pvp weapon + pvp offhand gives me an extra 80~ healing.
Shared cooldown, like almost all dps caster trinkets.
"Picking it up for later" is fine, he's going to die a lot, if i don't get it i don't get it but thats no reason not to think about it.
There are some fights where ZHC is better than OR for sure, but likewise the reverse so I don't see any real incentive to get a ZHC. (Here's hoping theres a new ~ZHC in ZA, or just some new clicky trinket. I love my oshu'gun relic but cmon)
If you feel like microing on that level sure it would be beneficial as long as the GCD won't annoy you. Makes me die a little inside to see an Apostle without +81 healing on it but to each their own.
So that would make ZHC + Matyr the two best trinkets for lifebloom stacking. ZG here we come.
About the spellsurge, I got it before it was nerfed and I was lured by promises of shadowpriest groups and shamans! Looking back now, spellsurge was probably not the most effective enchant, as I'm usually the last priority healer to be put in caster groups (other than the poor tank pally). Also now that tree aura range bug is fixed it's actually useful - an extra 30~ hps on triple stacked lifeblooms!
I would probably go out and re-enchant this moment if I wasn't so cheap (and poor).
Regarding micro - I can probably set up one button to, switch then use trinkets, and press that same button again to switch back using outfitter. The only problem I forsee in the gcds, and burst damage while your trying to stack lifeblooms.
I've found tree healing to be the most enjoyable healing style by far. I've healed as a pally and dreamstate druid before.
Keeping lifebloom rolling is oversimplifying it a bit. I find that keeping up the 3 stacks are what punctuates my heals - accounting for lag, I have about a 4 second window to raid heal, keep up other HoTs on my target, and watching with an itchy finger to NS or swiftmend. We're the only class with what amounts to a instant heal with a 15 second CD, and abusing that requires reactive healing on top of the proactive HoTing.
It's a nice mix, and I love the mobility of it all too. Who else can jump around for the entire duration of a boss fight?
Can someone check if my math is right? I'm trying to compare (relatively) definitively the relative worth of spirit vs. mp5.
Given that as a tree:
-In the 5 second rule 100% of the time
-Intensity has been buffed to 30%
-Innervate (400% regen for 20 seconds) is used every cooldown (6 min)
9 spirit / 4.5 = 2 mana per tick (2 seconds)
9 spirit = 5 mp/5 out of 5 second rule
Intensity
5 mp/5 * 0.3 = 1.5 mp/5 (in 5sr regen from 9 spirit)
Innervate
9 spirit = 2 mana per tick
2 * 10 = 20 (innervate has 10 ticks)
20 * 4 = 80 (innervate increases mana regen by 400%)
9 spirit regens 80 mana per innervate
80 / (6 * 12) = 1.11 mp/5
Assuming 8 spirit = 3 mp/5 in terms of itemization budget, and you use innervate every time its up, you will get more mana back if you itemize for mp/5.
Obviously, if you're lazy and only refresh lifebloom stacks, then you can get 1 spirit tick in between refreshes, which will alter things in spirit's favor. I know that even when I'm not casting Rejuv, Regrowth, or raid healing in between, I have a tendency to refresh my stacks early, so I'd say 100% inside 5sr is pretty accurate, at least for me.
There are some things havn't taken int account for.
Living Spirt (+15%)
Blessing of Kings (+10%)
Tree Aura (25% of spirit to +heal, assuming tank group)
Imp DS (+10% of spirit to heal)
These things probably make spirit slightly more attractive but it will still be worse mp5 wise.
Well I purposely left out the externalities. Tree aura might be completely irrelevant in most cases because a pally's aura will mitigate more damage (discussed earlier). Either way, both issues are separate debates that have little to do with mana regen.
As for Living Spirit and BoK, I suppose I can just multiply my results by * 1.15 * 1.10? You're right - won't make too big of difference.
Also it seem's like you havn't added the 400% bonus for your innervate calculations.
I think BoK+Living spirit would be additive not multiplicative for a 25% increase in spirit.
Taking into account raid buffs, (and tank group and only healing tank and innervating self every 6 minutes) =P
8 spirit = 2.9 mp5 and 3.5 +heal
vs
18 heal
vs
3 mp5
Spirit doesn't look so bad after all.
Honestly though, resto druids will be rolling in so much mana next patch due to intensity change, (if your not already), innervates will often not go to yourself, and any extra mp5 is a wasted stat.
Itemising for maximum heal is probably the best way to go imo.
Wow, assuming our math is correct after accounting for 400% bonus, spirit looks to be a lot more competitive. I never expected the two to be that close.
Shared cooldown, like almost all dps caster trinkets.
"Picking it up for later" is fine, he's going to die a lot, if i don't get it i don't get it but thats no reason not to think about it.
There are some fights where ZHC is better than OR for sure, but likewise the reverse so I don't see any real incentive to get a ZHC. (Here's hoping theres a new ~ZHC in ZA, or just some new clicky trinket. I love my oshu'gun relic but cmon)
If you feel like microing on that level sure it would be beneficial as long as the GCD won't annoy you. Makes me die a little inside to see an Apostle without +81 healing on it but to each their own.
I've seen some math that shows for spirit to give as much mana as mp5 you need to be outside of the five second rule just 20% of the time. Being outside of it 20% of the time isn't terribly difficult to do, especially in fights with phase changes, and in situations where you're just rolling a single lifebloom.
After 2.3 I'd always go spirit over MP5 given two otherwise equal items. It's however very difficult to quantify at which point MP5 might become desirable for some fight. Sometimes you only innervate once in a 9 minute fight (or do 2nd one so late you don't fully benefit from mana). Sometimes you get to do 2 full innervates in 10 minutes. Sometimes you innervate shadow priest instead of yourself.
I think spirit is slightly more versatile. In a fight where there's a critical spamheal situation (think Huhuran, RoS-P3) where you can go ahead spamming regrowth (with spell haste even?) it's very much better to have spirit since the critical part of the fight is very short. At other times mana recovery is completely irrelevant but the aura & improved divine spirit bonuses will still help.
At other times yet innervate will help you practice a fight better. If you only last 3 minutes from the engagement, it's clearly better to blow tons of mana away (healing requirements should go down as you learn it so this should be quite okay) and innervate for goodly amount than to have MP5 for the endurance (which will only really come later).
MP5 just doesn't seem to be better in very many situations.
I've seen some math that shows for spirit to give as much mana as mp5 you need to be outside of the five second rule just 20% of the time. Being outside of it 20% of the time isn't terribly difficult to do, especially in fights with phase changes, and in situations where you're just rolling a single lifebloom.
Care to share links and such?
The best I've found comes out around 2.5-3~ Spi = 1 MP5, given using Innervate (which seems to account for the major part in spirits personal worth to a Druid) in 2.3.
As to Anaram, can you post examples of items that are more heavily spirit orientated in comparison to an MP5 version where you would pick the spirit one above it?
Perhaps [Garments of Temperance] vs [Don Rodrigo's Poncho] where you get 52 spirit vs 20 MP5.
Its very rare to find examples of exactly that, because quite often its a choice of heavy spirit vs spirit and MP5, where 10-15 extra spirit vs 5-8 MP5 have obvious results.
Given the other items like [Nordrassil Chestguard] which open up the options:
52 spirit vs 20 MP5 vs (21 healing, 31 spirit, 6 MP5 - 3x 9/2)
In which case I would rather have the mix and the extra healing.
[Talisman of Ascendance] might be worth considering if people have lost/ sold other trinkets in the past. On one hand it wouldn't give the full bonus to all targets, on the other it is only a 1 min cooldown so if you do lose a stack you wouldn't have to wait long before starting another freshly- trinketed one.
As to Anaram, can you post examples of items that are more heavily spirit orientated in comparison to an MP5 version where you would pick the spirit one above it?
There aren't exactly many items which druids can wear which are otherwise equal. It also seems blizzard itemizes spirit items slightly less for the "worse" stats (intellect).
Solving this equation gives X = 0.3428~
You would have to be out of combat 34.28% of the time to reach an average of 3mp5 gain.
Your calculations don't take into account Innervate. The link posted from Resto4Life does, it's pretty compelling.
EDIT: Also, are we 100% sure that Kings and Living Spirit are additive, because that'd be different then most abilities in the game. If it's multiplicative, that'd be 10.12 Spirit (8 * 1.1 * 1.15).
Does anyone have an updated Resto Druid spreadsheet? One that would calculate HPS, MPS etc. based on gear/talents. I couldn't find anything except the mp5 vs spirit spreadsheet upon searching the forums and this thread.
My own personal preference for various reasons has always been mana/5 to the extent that when given a choice, I have maximized mana/5 over +heal and spirit alike. Lucky for me, most of the items I wear have all 3 of these stats so the choices have not been too hard, but it was this feeling that led me to choose the 11healing 2mana/5 gems for my gear instead of the 22healing gems.
With the new change to intensity, and the fact that I am already really happy with my mana regen as it now is, I'm thinking that maybe now is the time to switch to the 22 healing gems and better maximize that stat. This choice almost seems obvious, but as a counter point my thinking is that anything that reduces the amount of mana pot chugging I do, which already isn't that bad, is a good thing, and maybe i should just enjoy the super regen...
Without getting to technical, since I prefer the feel of something other than the numbers behind it, any thoughts? Will we really be "swimming in mana" as others have put it?
I've pretty much read this whole thread and wished I'd have commented long ago on a number of issues people were having.
A couple of little notes: Eye of the Dead and Essence of the Martyr definitely stack. I've had both since I want to say Mayish. Both can be popped right after one another and it's benefit can be realized completely on up to 4 tanks. As Oxylos had eluded to earlier lag may affect this as it does me. My latency is around 260 on a regular basis living on the east coast and being on a west coast server. I think the longest I've held 4 stacks was about 15 seconds and that was on TK trash before Kael.
I guess a second note, there seems to be a few schools of thought about balance of +heal, spirit, and mp5. From what I can tell Oxylos goes full out +heal and as long as he's got the party mechanics/ mana pot cd's to support it... all the power to him. I've seen others that like to spirit stack and play the 5 second rule game and keep like 200 +heal tol auras. I'm not too big on that strat. If it works for you cool... but I think you're way under utilzing your abilities if you are.
I tend to go with a bit of a balance though I'm tempted to go more all out +heal as every time I get a +heal upgrade that extra heal becomes that much more addicting. I think unbuffed I'm somewhere around 350 regen outside 5 second rule, 170 within 5 second rule with about 1850 +heal. I can trinket that up to 2700ish +heal for a triple LB stack.
Earlier in this thread I saw a lot of talk about Hots not being able to keep a tank up alone. I would have to say generally that's not the case. As a matter of fact on Kael I can keep 3 tanks up solo in phases 2,3, and 4 and I'm not exactly the greatest thing since sliced bread. I've actually had issues on that fight with having too much responsibilty, getting gazed by Thaladred, and a bunch of other healers having to hit Oh S**t buttons to keep them up till I get back.
Yeah Hyjal seems to be a druid's paradise for healing so far. dropped 2 bosses the same night we killed Kael for the first time. Sooo many tanks to keep up with.
Sorry if I'm rambling: Morogrim is the kind of fight guilds used to bring 9 healers to and put 6 on the MT, so that you can't keep the MT up solo... big woop.. should have 5 on MT for that I bet. I know we do it with me and maybe 1-2 others.
Anyways I'm definitely an MP5 junky. I almost put 6 MP5 on Grove Bands of Remulos till I kinda smacked myself into sticking with the core strength of the item and that's pooploads of +heal.
Ribeye, I was looking at that blog and spreadsheet that someone else posted about spirit/mp5 for 2.2/2.3 a bit. I think that the change to intensity will help our regen quite a bit, quite possibly to the extent that using the 22 healing gems mainly will be quite plausible. However, if you're a lifebloom stacker, mp5 is still going to be better than spirit. I'd say we're in the 90-95% inside mp5 rule bracket on most fights. Post patch it looks like that puts us at 4.5 spirit = 1 mp5. Right now that's 8 spirit = 1 mp5. Sooo with 331 spirit unbuffed that would jump my spirit contribution within 5 second rule from 41 mp5 to 70 mp5. That's basically a flask, not quite a Blessing of Wisdom. If I wanted to I could easily jump that to 500 or so raid buffed, maybe a bit more. I've seen druids with 800 spirit. With the patch that's 100 mp5 within 5 second rule. That is quite sexy.
Like Ribeye I'm a healing/mp5 gem junky. Those 22 healing gems are quite tempting though. I think if I get a red scoket I'm going to pop those in them and keep the 11 healing 2 mp5's for the blues.
Beef I loved your post about keeping your innervate. I generally agree with you. However, I think dropping it on a shadowpriest might make a bit more impact, even if they're not in your group. I always do that and just pop a couple mana pots instead.
I look forward to chiming in in the future. Have fun saving the World... of Warcraft.
because it has damage on it, I don't think it will be
The damage on it is a result of the +healing, rather than being a separate +dmg part (396/3 = 132) like something such as the [Zandalarian Hero Charm] which has a 2/1 heal/dmg ratio, rather than the 3/1 now appearing on "mainly healing" items.
Assuming 8 spirit = 3 mp/5 in terms of itemization budget, and you use innervate every time its up, you will get more mana back if you itemize for mp/5.
Innervate "Increases mana regen by 400%" not "to 400%" so it's a x5 multiplier instead of x4 giving you:
9 spi = 100 mana per innervate
You also have to take into account that Innervate overwrites intensity, so over 6 min you only have 340 seconds of intensity regen plus 20 seconds of innervate.
340/5 = 68 5s
68 * 1.5 (intensity mp5) = 102 mana
102 + 100 = 202
202/72 = 2.8056 mp5 averaged out
2.8056 * 1.25 = 3.507 mp5 with kings/living spirit
3.507 / 9 * 8 = 3.117 mp5 for +8 Spirit with Kings/Living Spirit
Of course, that's assuming fights come in 6 minute intervals, You can innervate twice during a 7-13m fight, and 3 times at 13-19m. The closer to the lower end of the fight time, the better spirit becomes because of a higher Innervate uptime (2 * 100 + 114 = 314 / 84 = 4.67 mp5 from 9 spirit during a 7 min fight with kings/ls)
I think BoK+Living spirit would be additive not multiplicative for a 25% increase in spirit.
I'd like to see this confirmed. Every other +% Stat talent in the game is multiplicative with Kings, a .015 increase may not seem like much until you consider that at 400 spirit that's another 6 spirit or ~2mp5
Mind you, you're also looking at itemization incorrectly. 2.4 spirit ~=~ 1 mp5 on itemization. Gems are just really messed up due to rounding, the "value available" on a crafted rare gem is about 8.2 stats worth (or 3.4 mp5, or 18.8 healing, or 9.8 spell damage, or 12.3 stam) however blizzard rounds everything down, except oddly the x/2 mp5 gems which are all highly overbudget at the rare level, but whatever.
2.4 spirit = 1 mp5 on itemization, however 2.4 spirit = .935 mp5 and .24 healing when raiding (DS, Kings, LS included but not ToL aura) Not bad when you consider that's at 100% of your time spent in FSR.
10/09/07, 12:37 AM
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