Druid - Tree Concerns and Issues - Page 16

Oxylos · 10/08/07, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by Xantcha

I'm confused with what you mean by this. Are the CD's shared or somehow the buff doesn't work properly with other on use trinkets.

[Memento of Tyrande] is great but every single healer wants on of these =|. "Picking it up for later" isn't really a possibility.

Sadly, I vendored my [Oshu'gun Relic], and would you still use it over a [Zandalarian Hero Charm]? In any fight without the possibility of lifebloom stacking, I would most likely sub out the trinket for my lower city anyway (i.e. bloodboil), or is it good enough to use one of my restores.

Also I've been considering having a weapon swap with lots of +heal to start buffed lifeblooms, anyone had any experience with doing this and is it viable.
I'm using a [Apostle of Argus] with a spellsurge and just switching out to my pvp weapon + pvp offhand gives me an extra 80~ healing.

Shared cooldown, like almost all dps caster trinkets.

"Picking it up for later" is fine, he's going to die a lot, if i don't get it i don't get it but thats no reason not to think about it.

There are some fights where ZHC is better than OR for sure, but likewise the reverse so I don't see any real incentive to get a ZHC. (Here's hoping theres a new ~ZHC in ZA, or just some new clicky trinket. I love my oshu'gun relic but cmon)

If you feel like microing on that level sure it would be beneficial as long as the GCD won't annoy you. Makes me die a little inside to see an Apostle without +81 healing on it but to each their own.

Xantcha · 10/09/07, 12:08 AM

So that would make ZHC + Matyr the two best trinkets for lifebloom stacking. ZG here we come.

About the spellsurge, I got it before it was nerfed and I was lured by promises of shadowpriest groups and shamans! Looking back now, spellsurge was probably not the most effective enchant, as I'm usually the last priority healer to be put in caster groups (other than the poor tank pally). Also now that tree aura range bug is fixed it's actually useful - an extra 30~ hps on triple stacked lifeblooms!

I would probably go out and re-enchant this moment if I wasn't so cheap (and poor).

Regarding micro - I can probably set up one button to, switch then use trinkets, and press that same button again to switch back using outfitter. The only problem I forsee in the gcds, and burst damage while your trying to stack lifeblooms.

rawrz · 10/09/07, 5:17 AM

RE: Fun Factor

I've found tree healing to be the most enjoyable healing style by far. I've healed as a pally and dreamstate druid before.

Keeping lifebloom rolling is oversimplifying it a bit. I find that keeping up the 3 stacks are what punctuates my heals - accounting for lag, I have about a 4 second window to raid heal, keep up other HoTs on my target, and watching with an itchy finger to NS or swiftmend. We're the only class with what amounts to a instant heal with a 15 second CD, and abusing that requires reactive healing on top of the proactive HoTing.

It's a nice mix, and I love the mobility of it all too. Who else can jump around for the entire duration of a boss fight?

rawrz · 10/09/07, 6:50 AM

Can someone check if my math is right? I'm trying to compare (relatively) definitively the relative worth of spirit vs. mp5.

Given that as a tree:
-In the 5 second rule 100% of the time
-Intensity has been buffed to 30%
-Innervate (400% regen for 20 seconds) is used every cooldown (6 min)

9 spirit / 4.5 = 2 mana per tick (2 seconds)
9 spirit = 5 mp/5 out of 5 second rule

Intensity
5 mp/5 * 0.3 = 1.5 mp/5 (in 5sr regen from 9 spirit)

Innervate
9 spirit = 2 mana per tick
2 * 10 = 20 (innervate has 10 ticks)
20 * 4 = 80 (innervate increases mana regen by 400%)
9 spirit regens 80 mana per innervate
80 / (6 * 12) = 1.11 mp/5

9 spirit = 1.5 mp/5 (from Intensity) + 1.11 mp/5 (from Innervate) = 2.61 mp/5

Assuming 8 spirit = 3 mp/5 in terms of itemization budget, and you use innervate every time its up, you will get more mana back if you itemize for mp/5.

Obviously, if you're lazy and only refresh lifebloom stacks, then you can get 1 spirit tick in between refreshes, which will alter things in spirit's favor. I know that even when I'm not casting Rejuv, Regrowth, or raid healing in between, I have a tendency to refresh my stacks early, so I'd say 100% inside 5sr is pretty accurate, at least for me.

Edited - forgot to account for 400% bonus.

Xantcha · 10/09/07, 7:04 AM

There are some things havn't taken int account for.

Living Spirt (+15%)
Blessing of Kings (+10%)
Tree Aura (25% of spirit to +heal, assuming tank group)
Imp DS (+10% of spirit to heal)

These things probably make spirit slightly more attractive but it will still be worse mp5 wise.

rawrz · 10/09/07, 7:10 AM

Originally Posted by Xantcha

There are some things havn't taken int account for.

Living Spirt (+15%)
Blessing of Kings (+10%)
Tree Aura (25% of spirit to +heal, assuming tank group)
Imp DS (+10% of spirit to heal)

These things probably make spirit slightly more attractive but it will still be worse mp5 wise.

Well I purposely left out the externalities. Tree aura might be completely irrelevant in most cases because a pally's aura will mitigate more damage (discussed earlier). Either way, both issues are separate debates that have little to do with mana regen.

As for Living Spirit and BoK, I suppose I can just multiply my results by * 1.15 * 1.10? You're right - won't make too big of difference.

Xantcha · 10/09/07, 7:38 AM

Also it seem's like you havn't added the 400% bonus for your innervate calculations.
I think BoK+Living spirit would be additive not multiplicative for a 25% increase in spirit.

Taking into account raid buffs, (and tank group and only healing tank and innervating self every 6 minutes) =P

8 spirit = 2.9 mp5 and 3.5 +heal
vs
18 heal
vs
3 mp5

Spirit doesn't look so bad after all.
Honestly though, resto druids will be rolling in so much mana next patch due to intensity change, (if your not already), innervates will often not go to yourself, and any extra mp5 is a wasted stat.
Itemising for maximum heal is probably the best way to go imo.

rawrz · 10/09/07, 8:16 AM

Wow, assuming our math is correct after accounting for 400% bonus, spirit looks to be a lot more competitive. I never expected the two to be that close.

Pyxis · 10/09/07, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Oxylos

Shared cooldown, like almost all dps caster trinkets.

"Picking it up for later" is fine, he's going to die a lot, if i don't get it i don't get it but thats no reason not to think about it.

There are some fights where ZHC is better than OR for sure, but likewise the reverse so I don't see any real incentive to get a ZHC. (Here's hoping theres a new ~ZHC in ZA, or just some new clicky trinket. I love my oshu'gun relic but cmon)

If you feel like microing on that level sure it would be beneficial as long as the GCD won't annoy you. Makes me die a little inside to see an Apostle without +81 healing on it but to each their own.

The wowhead comment about [Eye of the Dead] apparently isn't correct, it does stack with at least [Essence of the Martyr]. Here's the reference:

http://elitistjerks.com/479685-post350.html

Lord BEEF · 10/09/07, 3:57 PM

I've seen some math that shows for spirit to give as much mana as mp5 you need to be outside of the five second rule just 20% of the time. Being outside of it 20% of the time isn't terribly difficult to do, especially in fights with phase changes, and in situations where you're just rolling a single lifebloom.

Anaram · 10/09/07, 5:07 PM

After 2.3 I'd always go spirit over MP5 given two otherwise equal items. It's however very difficult to quantify at which point MP5 might become desirable for some fight. Sometimes you only innervate once in a 9 minute fight (or do 2nd one so late you don't fully benefit from mana). Sometimes you get to do 2 full innervates in 10 minutes. Sometimes you innervate shadow priest instead of yourself.

I think spirit is slightly more versatile. In a fight where there's a critical spamheal situation (think Huhuran, RoS-P3) where you can go ahead spamming regrowth (with spell haste even?) it's very much better to have spirit since the critical part of the fight is very short. At other times mana recovery is completely irrelevant but the aura & improved divine spirit bonuses will still help.

At other times yet innervate will help you practice a fight better. If you only last 3 minutes from the engagement, it's clearly better to blow tons of mana away (healing requirements should go down as you learn it so this should be quite okay) and innervate for goodly amount than to have MP5 for the endurance (which will only really come later).

MP5 just doesn't seem to be better in very many situations.

Playered · 10/09/07, 9:43 PM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

I've seen some math that shows for spirit to give as much mana as mp5 you need to be outside of the five second rule just 20% of the time. Being outside of it 20% of the time isn't terribly difficult to do, especially in fights with phase changes, and in situations where you're just rolling a single lifebloom.

Care to share links and such?

The best I've found comes out around 2.5-3~ Spi = 1 MP5, given using Innervate (which seems to account for the major part in spirits personal worth to a Druid) in 2.3.

As to Anaram, can you post examples of items that are more heavily spirit orientated in comparison to an MP5 version where you would pick the spirit one above it?
Perhaps [Garments of Temperance] vs [Don Rodrigo's Poncho] where you get 52 spirit vs 20 MP5.

Its very rare to find examples of exactly that, because quite often its a choice of heavy spirit vs spirit and MP5, where 10-15 extra spirit vs 5-8 MP5 have obvious results.
Given the other items like [Nordrassil Chestguard] which open up the options:
52 spirit vs 20 MP5 vs (21 healing, 31 spirit, 6 MP5 - 3x 9/2)
In which case I would rather have the mix and the extra healing.

CD · 10/09/07, 10:21 PM

[Talisman of Ascendance] might be worth considering if people have lost/ sold other trinkets in the past. On one hand it wouldn't give the full bonus to all targets, on the other it is only a 1 min cooldown so if you do lose a stack you wouldn't have to wait long before starting another freshly- trinketed one.

Xantcha · 10/09/07, 11:33 PM

Spirit Calculations.

Comparing 8 Spirit to 3 mp5.

With Kings and Living Spirit
8 x 1.25 = 10 Spirit

This puts me at
5.55 mp5 ooc (0.555 x 10)

and (30% intensity)
1.67 ic (0.3 x 5.55)

5.55*(1-X)+1.67*X=3

Solving this equation gives X = 0.3428~
You would have to be out of combat 34.28% of the time to reach an average of 3mp5 gain.

Playered · 10/09/07, 11:55 PM

Theres a blog which has some useful calculations/graphs/spreadsheet for people to read if needed.

2.3 spi regen update:
Resto4Life: Revaluing Spirit