Hit Caps - Page 2

panny · 06/05/07, 4:31 AM

Armoury here. I think I logged off in my PvE DPS gear, but I can't check as Armory appears to be down for me right now.

I had +6% hit from Dual Weild Specialization and +3% hit from Nature's Guidance. From gear I had ~17% hit, making around 26%. Maxed weapon skill.

Judithe · 06/05/07, 6:27 AM

Is it only shaman that are seeing misses above the 25.5% mark? Sounds like it could be a case of a bugged or broken talent. Apologies if I missed a rogue reporting it also.

Jordanish · 06/05/07, 7:37 AM

Make sure ur not having parrys and dodges being counted as misses which some mods will do.

panny · 06/06/07, 2:39 AM

They're not, you can clearly separate misses from dodge/parry in the WWS.

sp00n · 06/06/07, 5:05 AM

Maybe Dual Wield Specialization and Nature's Guidance don't stack?

Seeing that every rogue (capable of reaching it) so far reported the hit cap to be 308 with 5% toHit talent and 10 skill rating, it's either this or weapon skill gives more tohit than currently assumed.

panny · 06/06/07, 7:21 AM

That's something I haven't considered. I've respecced for this Gruul run (Enh/Ele) so we'll see if my miss rates are similar.

panny · 06/06/07, 9:08 AM

Gruul: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...3543-4051&a=19

My miss rate went up ~5% (7% from 2%) so it seemed like Nature's Guidance was having an effect. Kara WWS to come after.

Kara: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=jfbmjhw21yroe&a=32

Auto-attack miss rates for boss mobs were: 3%, 7%, 3%, 2%

So...er... I have no idea what's going on. Perhaps some mobs have naturally higher defense?

• Relwin · 06/06/07, 11:43 PM

With some absurdly stacked hit, 9% talents + 307 rating = 28.47%, I successfully had zero white misses on a boss fight. Sample size is much smaller than I'd like so I'll see if Gurg will let my slide into Gruul or something to get some decent tank/spank data going.

panny · 06/07/07, 5:41 AM

Originally Posted by Relwin

With some absurdly stacked hit, 9% talents + 307 rating = 28.47%, I successfully had zero white misses on a boss fight. Sample size is much smaller than I'd like so I'll see if Gurg will let my slide into Gruul or something to get some decent tank/spank data going.

It'd be awesome if you could check different levels of +hit.

I was getting misses at 26% still, so unless someone has a higher figure where they were still getting misses, that'd be a decent place to start.

P.S. Why'd you quit your Shaman? :'(

Emeraude · 06/07/07, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Here's me with 7.34% Hit, no weapon skill and 1% hit talented(8.34% Total)

Out of 243 white hits, I missed 5(2%). Out of 68 Bloodthirsts I missed 2(2.9%). Out of all 530 attacks total I missed 7 total(1.3%)

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=bmhhlg2hszrx5

Here with me going completely overboard 116 Hit rating(7.34% Hit) 4 weapon skill and 3% hit from talents(10.74% total)

There were 0 misses.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=b61x1gwtoufa3

Gonna try again with 7.34% Hit + 2% Hit from talents and see how 9.34% does.

If I'm still missing after that, there's a possibility that the formula changed, in WoW Classic the cap was definately between 8-9% on 73 mobs(8.6% from my calculations), 1% level penalty for 2-handers per leveled + the def difference of the mob. If weapon skill changed drastically it might be 9.5%+ to ensure a 100% non-miss.

Ok, in addition to the quoted research I did, today I went back and did quite a few encounters(I accidently left my combatlog running >_>) with 9.36% hit(116 Hit Rating, and +2% Hit Talents, 350 base weapon skill)

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=rm4x2xmak2ovc

With 9.36% Hit I had 0 misses, so we can confirm with a 2-hander the hit rate is between 8.36%-9.36%.

sp00n · 06/07/07, 8:31 AM

8.6% is believed to be the miss rate for special attacks for rogues, wouldn't be too surprised if this also applies to 2 handed weapons.

Has any dual wielding warrior so far performed any tests with enough hit rating?
Which should be (25.5-3)*15.77= 355

◊ Lactose · 06/07/07, 8:34 AM

Just to reiterate, Hunters also report a 8.6% for their attacks - both Auto Shot and specials.

EDIT:
Pre-TBC changes with Weapon Skills, tests I did seemed to indicate 1 Weapon Skill giving ~0.24% ranged Hit (as well as some Crit%). With the changes to Weapon Skill, the amount of Hit% gained per Weapon Skill is still a bit uncertain.

zork · 06/07/07, 11:40 AM

As we wrote in the "+ weapon skill"-thread, the formula for our miss-chance for 2handers / ranged seems to be:

5 + (mob_level - player_level) + ((mob_base_defense - player_weapon_skill) * 0.04) = 8.6 for 73

What I do not quite understand: The miss chance for dw should be:

19 + 5 + ((mob_base_defense - player_weapon_skill) * 0.1) = 25.5 for 73

They seem to be very different.

Has anyone done tests on the one-hand + shield miss-chance yet? It could be:

5 + ((mob_base_defense - player_weapon_skill) * 0.1) = 6.5 for 73

• Aldriana · 06/07/07, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Ok, in addition to the quoted research I did, today I went back and did quite a few encounters(I accidently left my combatlog running >_>) with 9.36% hit(116 Hit Rating, and +2% Hit Talents, 350 base weapon skill)

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=rm4x2xmak2ovc

With 9.36% Hit I had 0 misses, so we can confirm with a 2-hander the hit rate is between 8.36%-9.36%.

Not quite. With a sample of only 482 attacks, you could have had a nonzero miss rate and just gotten lucky. For instance, if the true value were 9.5 your expected miss rate for would be .14%, or 1 in 700 attacks. Hence the fact that you didn't miss in the first 482 isn't even remotely unusual.

To be specific, grinding a few statistics, we find that it's 95% likely that the true miss rate based on this data set is 9.98% or lower. So you've ruled out anything over 10%, but would need 5 times as many swings to strengthen that bound.

• Juice · 06/07/07, 2:25 PM

Holy cow a real statistician. Whenever I read people firing from the hip about how many sample points they think is enough, i'm tempted to break out the statistics and prove them wrong. Luckily, I'm considerably more lazy than that. From now on I'll just page Aldriana to the thread. Nice work.

panny · 06/11/07, 3:15 AM

Well, anedoctally, Nature's Guidaince definitely has an effect. My miss rates have gone up since I respecced Enh/Ele, so something is definitely fishy regarding hit caps for Shaman vs. Rogues. Anyone have any kind of test they want to suggest before I spec back to Enh/Resto? (Really missing the +3% spell hit for Earth Shock in Resto.)

• Aldriana · 06/11/07, 4:10 AM

I think what would be helpful is if Shaman could pin down the number past which they no longer miss. Perhaps knowing what the shaman number is will help us figure out what's going on.

• Relwin · 06/11/07, 4:43 AM

Sneaking in a Gruul tomorrow with the aforementioned 28.47% hit for data collection purposes. Will report back.

• Relwin · 07/08/07, 2:02 AM

SUPAH THREAD NECRO!

Finally did Gruul as an alt with 28.02% to hit and had zero missed over 1120 white hits.

Screens of my CombatStats window when I'm not so tired.

sp00n · 07/08/07, 7:25 AM

What class? Shaman?

• Relwin · 07/08/07, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by sp00n

What class? Shaman?

Yeah, next timer I'll be going in with my old level of hit, mid 27%, to see if I can nail down a solid cap for shaman.

Dyz · 07/09/07, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by panny

Gruul: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...3543-4051&a=19

My miss rate went up ~5% (7% from 2%) so it seemed like Nature's Guidance was having an effect. Kara WWS to come after.

Kara: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=jfbmjhw21yroe&a=32

Auto-attack miss rates for boss mobs were: 3%, 7%, 3%, 2%

So...er... I have no idea what's going on. Perhaps some mobs have naturally higher defense?

If your looking at your miss rate on WWS, you have to click on "misses" or "miss percentage". I dont recall which off the top of my head, and I cannot see your stats as it has expired.

You will see that 5% miss equates to being dodged/parried. WWS considers all dodges/parries as misses. So you may no have missed at all. You could have also hit an immune mob, havent checked to see if immune attacks are counted as misses on WWS.

• Vulajin · 07/09/07, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Dyz

If your looking at your miss rate on WWS, you have to click on "misses" or "miss percentage". I dont recall which off the top of my head, and I cannot see your stats as it has expired.

You will see that 5% miss equates to being dodged/parried. WWS considers all dodges/parries as misses. So you may no have missed at all. You could have also hit an immune mob, havent checked to see if immune attacks are counted as misses on WWS.

This has not been the case for quite some time. WWS separates all miss types into separate columns. Reference this for example (click on the "Melee" row to expand it and see).

panny · 07/10/07, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by Dyz

If your looking at your miss rate on WWS, you have to click on "misses" or "miss percentage". I dont recall which off the top of my head, and I cannot see your stats as it has expired.

You will see that 5% miss equates to being dodged/parried. WWS considers all dodges/parries as misses. So you may no have missed at all. You could have also hit an immune mob, havent checked to see if immune attacks are counted as misses on WWS.

It's been said many times (even in this very thread) that dodge/parries aren't being counted as misses.

Relwin: With all the work that was done regarding +hit vs crit/AP, determining the 'real' hit cap for Shaman isn't as vital anymore, but I am still interested, if only for curiosity's sake.

sp00n · 07/10/07, 5:28 AM

It is, at least for me.
I still find it hard to believe that there are different hit caps for different classes.

Did anybody test with a warrior whether they have 25.5% or a different number?