Relentless Earthstorm Diamond - melee only? - Page 4

Kegsta · 08/19/07, 1:05 AM

[Shaman] Relentless Earthstorm for Ele?

Sven worked out how this formula worked a while ago.

After mucking around and doing some calculations, I came up with a nice summary of how the RED works:

100% + {(150%*1.03) - 100%} * (100% + TDI) = Crit Damage
Where

100% is the normal damage

{(150%*1.03) - 100%} is the crit damage with the relentless earthstorm diamond (would normally be 150% - 100% or simply 50%). This would be {(200% * 1.03) - 100%) for melee damage.

(100% + TDI) is the total damage increased from talents, with TDI as the percent increase from talents (100% for ele shammies using Elemental Fury, Locks using Ruin, Moonkin using Vengeance; 50% for arcane mages using spell power; 30% for rogues using lethality; etc)

For simplicity's sake, here's a list of crit damage increase from the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond:

(Note that Ignite is not a crit modifier – it just multiplies the total damage done by 1.4. Ignite is also included in the final crit damage %)

Moonkin: 209% - 200% = 9%
Feral Druid: 216.6% - 210% = 6.6%

Marksmanship Hunter: 237.8% - 230% = 7.8%

Arcane Mage: 181.75% - 175% = 6.75%
Arcane/Frost Mage: 236.25% -225% = 11.25%
Fire Mage: 216.3% - 210% = 6.3%
Arcane/Fire mage: 254.45% - 245% = 9.45%

Lethality Rogue: 237.8% - 230% = 7.8%

Elemental Shaman: 209% - 200% = 9%

Ruin Warlock: 209% - 200% = 9%

Arms Warrior: 220% - 227.2% = 7.2%

So, I'm sure the gem becomes completely overpowered once you get some really good gear as an ele shammy. If you were shooting 2k lighting bolts at 45% crit rate (I'd assume this is tip-top gear, full tier 6 and whatnot), your average LB (including crits) would be 2900. Add in the RED and you add about 180 damage per crit, raising your average LB (still including crits) to 2981. Assuming I calculated it correctly, this would be equivalent to adding ~70 spell damage.

chase · 08/19/07, 3:50 AM

Originally Posted by Kegsta

[Shaman] Relentless Earthstorm for Ele?

Sven worked out how this formula worked a while ago.

Well at least the PTR info is semi-new.

so2 · 08/27/07, 3:34 AM

I am specced with Ruin, and here are the results of my tests:

Tested with Immolate rank 5.

Without Relentless Earthstorm Diamond
1142 spell damage

Non-crit
Total: 70
Minimum: 423
Maximum: 424
Average: 424

Crit
Total: 30
Minimum: 847
Maximum: 848
Average: 848

Average crit bonus (Without Relentless Earthstorm Diamond): 200.00%

With Relentless Earthstorm Diamond
1142 spell damage

Non-crit
Total: 78
Minimum: 423
Maximum: 424
Average: 424

Crit
Total: 22
Minimum: 885
Maximum: 886
Average: 886

Average crit bonus (With Relentless Earthstorm Diamond): 208.96%

I think it's safe to not only say this meta works for spells, but for Ruin/Ice Shards specced Destruction Warlocks and Frost Mages, they'll get 9% extra crit damage.

sp00n · 08/27/07, 4:53 AM

Well you could do the same test on the PTR and see how/if it was changed.

Roywyn · 08/27/07, 7:47 AM

I hate quoting my own post, but people have been asking/testing/inquiring questions my previous post already answered.

Originally Posted by Roywyn

So, for spells without crit talents we get 154.5% crits, for spells with a +100% crit talent (elemental shaman, balance druids, destruction warlocks, frost mages) we get 209% crits.
Arcane mages get 181.75% crits, arcane/frost mages get 236.25% crits, fire mages (Ignite is no crit modifier but just multiplies the total damage done by 1.4) get 216.3%, arcane/fire mages get 254.45% crits including ignites.

This is how it works on the live servers. The calculations where those numbers come from are in the post (click the arrow link on top of the quote).

The odd results come from the same calculation that makes resilience have increased effect on crit talents.

On the PTR (tested only with arcane spells, with and without crit talents), it seems that it's now a flat 1.03 multiplier after the calculation. Final crit damage = total crit damage without meta gem * 1.03. It's kind of expected, since it used the same mechanics resilience which was fixed.

• frmorrison · 08/29/07, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Final crit damage = total crit damage without meta gem * 1.03. It's kind of expected, since it used the same mechanics resilience which was fixed.

Too bad for the casters with this meta.

Anyway, so Resilience will be nerfed (not reducing crit damage as much) and buffed with the DoT damage removal?

Larisroth · 08/29/07, 1:01 AM

Well a straight 1.03 modifier makes far more sense.
If it is linked to the resilience mechanic, will it buff dots when that change goes through?

Hagrar · 08/30/07, 10:02 PM

the metagem is very good for casters. i mean mages/locks, who has lots of crits. why?

Yeah maybe true for immolate, but let's check shadow bolt:

1299shadow dmg, crits on cos+ISB debuff, without the +3% crit dmg metagem:
5891
5825
5995
5915
5937
5971
5837
5921
5931
5992
5937
5897
total crit hit: 12
avarage dmg: 5921
---------------------------------
same dmg with the metagem:
6273
6112
6264
6201
6191
6124
6241
6086
6159
6194
6121
6248
total: 12
avarage dmg: 6185

Which mean you'll get +3-4% critical dmg bonus, like the tooltips says. The +9% immolate dmg crit boost can be true, i didnt rly tried it, but i made the same test with incinirate and got 3-4% crit dmg boost, nothing extra. I really dont understund how so2 get the 9% boost, but it wont give so much dmg boost for your main spells (i mean SB or Incinirate);P

Is it worth?
Hell yes! If you have more then 30% crit this is the best metagem for you

with +12 spelldmg metagem (onthefly calculations):
3012
3012
3024
or +3%spellcritdmg metagem:
3000
3000
3060
calculated with 33% crit;P And in raid i guess you have more than 33% crit (i have 38% without totem or boomkin, so yeah its really worth!

Nizari · 08/31/07, 12:57 AM

I can't see any mention in the notes so I will test it out later tonight.

That will suck hard if the nerf does go through.

Nizari · 08/31/07, 1:01 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

On the PTR (tested only with arcane spells, with and without crit talents), it seems that it's now a flat 1.03 multiplier after the calculation. Final crit damage = total crit damage without meta gem * 1.03. It's kind of expected, since it used the same mechanics resilience which was fixed.

Seeing as Arcane doesn't get a double crit dmg talent there is still the possibility for it to be 2.06%... so I will like I said before send over my shaman and test it out.

Ardence · 09/01/07, 11:31 AM

Been using this Meta for a while on my balance druid and I love it. Since I slotted it my DPS has went up =)

Mageborn · 09/04/07, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by El_Savor

/bump

Patch 2.1.2 released on PTR.

"Relentless Earthstorm Diamond: The bonus damage to critical strikes from this metagem now applies to all types of damage, not just physical."

Does that mean i can apply this to my mages gear? Any possible theroycrafting compared to other gems?

Since i'm a lazy peon, i'll let the experts do the work.

I just wrote this:

RED Theory for Warlocks and Fire Mages

epiphenom · 09/04/07, 5:52 AM

Has anyone else tested RED for spells on the current PTR patch?

I was on the PTR testing something else, and the data seemed weird to me, so I ran some tests with and without the meta on. Unless I just had the weirdest streak of luck I've ever had, it appears that in the current PTR patch, Relentless Earthstorm is not affecting spells at all.

Ele' · 09/04/07, 6:34 AM

Originally Posted by Mageborn

I just wrote this:

RED Theory for Warlocks and Fire Mages

Well, in the comparaison between the RED and the Imbued Unstable Diamond that i wrote here, I got some pretty different values. For example with a 25% crit rate, it seems to me that you will only need ~500 spell damage to get a larger benefit from RED (instead of the ~1700 spell damage that you found).

I know that I didn't include SnF in my paper (I'll do it... when I get some time :-/), but it seems to be a pretty massive difference...

If I try to use the following formula (reversing the formula I used here) to compare RED and SSD:

+dmgEquivalent = (572 + dmg* 3/ 3.5) * (critRate* 0.06) / (3/3.5)

I get the following values:

crit \ dmg	1400	1500	1600	1700	1800	1900	2000	2100	2200	2300	2400
15		18.6	19.5	20.4	21.3	22.2	23.1	24.0	24.9	25.8	26.7	27.6
20		24.8	26.0	27.2	28.4	29.6	30.8	32.0	33.2	34.4	35.6	36.8
25		31.0	32.5	34.0	35.5	37.0	38.5	40.0	41.5	43.0	44.5	46.0
30		37.2	39.0	40.8	42.6	44.4	46.2	48.0	49.8	51.6	53.4	55.2
35		43.4	45.5	47.6	49.7	51.8	53.9	56.0	58.1	60.2	62.3	64.4
40		49.6	52.0	54.4	56.8	59.2	61.6	64.0	66.4	68.8	71.2	73.6

I assumed hit capped and I'm still not using SnF, but...

Using SnF, I get:

+dmgEquivalent = (572+ dmg*(3/ 3.5 +0.2)) * (critRate* 0.06) / (3/ 3.5 +0.2)

crit \ dmg	1400	1500	1600	1700	1800	1900	2000	2100	2200	2300	2400
15		17.5	18.4	19.3	20.2	21.1	22.0	22.9	23.8	24.7	25.6	26.5
20		23.3	24.5	25.7	26.9	28.1	29.3	30.5	31.7	32.9	34.1	35.3
25		29.1	30.6	32.1	33.6	35.1	36.6	38.1	39.6	41.1	42.6	44.1
30		34.9	36.7	38.5	40.3	42.1	43.9	45.7	47.5	49.3	51.1	52.9
35		40.8	42.9	45.0	47.1	49.2	51.3	53.4	55.5	57.6	59.7	61.8
40		46.6	49.0	51.4	53.8	56.2	58.6	61.0	63.4	65.8	68.2	70.6

I know that IUD benefit from SnF too, but it don't explain the difference between our values. Is something so flawed in my raisoning that I'm unable to see it ? o0'

[Edit for clarity] I'm assuming a Warlock, using Ruin ^^

weet · 09/04/07, 7:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ele'

Well, in the comparaison between the RED and the Imbued Unstable Diamond that i wrote here, I got some pretty different values. For example with a 25% crit rate, it seems to me that you will only need ~500 spell damage to get a larger benefit from RED (instead of the ~1700 spell damage that you found).

1700 was referring to non-crit shadowbot average

"Numbers in blue are your average non-crit damage with a shadowbolt."

Ele' · 09/04/07, 7:39 AM

oops, my bad. I'll modify my values according to that and see if it match...

Edit: Correcting my table, I get this for SnF:

crit \ dmg	1400	1500	1600	1700	1800	1900	2000	2100	2200	2300	2400
15		11.9	12.8	13.6	14.5	15.3	16.2	17.0	17.9	18.7	19.6	20.4
20		15.9	17.0	18.2	19.3	20.4	21.6	22.7	23.8	25.0	26.1	27.2
25		19.9	21.3	22.7	24.1	25.5	27.0	28.4	29.8	31.2	32.6	34.1
30		23.8	25.5	27.2	28.9	30.6	32.4	34.1	35.8	37.5	39.2	40.9
35		27.8	29.8	31.8	33.8	35.8	37.7	39.7	41.7	43.7	45.7	47.7
40		31.8	34.1	36.3	38.6	40.9	43.1	45.4	47.7	49.9	52.2	54.5

Those values are the double of those found by Mageborn.

My understanding is that he considered that the RED was amplifying only the "non-crit" part of the bolt, while I consider that it's amplifying the "whole" critical bolt, thus using a 0.06 multiplier (instead of 0.03)...

Mageborn · 09/04/07, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ele'

Those values are the double of those found by Mageborn.

My understanding is that he considered that the RED was amplifying only the "non-crit" part of the bolt, while I consider that it's amplifying the "whole" critical bolt, thus using a 0.06 multiplier (instead of 0.03)...

Lets say:
Your shadowbolt does 1000 damage non-crit.

Without ruin, you have 50% benefit from crits.
That means that your shadowbolt does 1000 + (0.50 * 1000) = 1500 when it crits.

If you don't have ruin and you do have a RED then you gain 50% + 3% = 53% benefit from crits.
That means that your shadowbolt does 1000 + (0.53 * 1000) = 1530 when it crits.

If you have ruin, then your spell crits have 100% benefit from crits.
That means that your shadowbolt does 1000 + (1.00 * 1000) = 2000 when it crits.

If you do have ruin and you do have a RED then you gain 100% + 3% = 103% benefit from crits.
That means that your shadowbolt does 1000 + (1.03 * 1000) = 2030 when it crits.

In this case your benefit to a 1000 average-non-crit-damage shadowbolt is 30 dmg when it crits.

If your crit rate is 1% then you gain 0.3 damage to your shadowbolts because you will see this benefit 1/100 spell casts.

Since your shadowbolt coefficient is 105.3%, you have to divide this benefit by 1.053 to get an actual +spell damage benefit of 0.02849 per 1% crit from RED.

Do you follow?

What Ele' did was calculated the 3% increase post-crit, so if your 1000 dmg spell crits for 2000, then he added 3% to 2000, so that the crit is 2060 instead of the actual 2030 that it is.

epiphenom · 09/04/07, 4:14 PM

Mageborn, it's you who doesn't follow. RED has never functioned in the manner that you describe, either on live or on PTR.

In the current patch, RED's formula is given in Kegsta's post, #76. In the early stages of patch 2.2, it functioned as Ele calculates it, and as Roywyn previously stated: (total crit damage)*1.03. This means that a 2000 point crit shadowbolt is enhanced to 2090 now and was enhanced to 2060 after the first round of fixes on PTR.

As I said, however, the point seems moot. In the current build, it looks like RED has no effect at all. I don't know whether it's still working on melee crit damage or not.

Mageborn · 09/04/07, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by epiphenom

Mageborn, it's you who doesn't follow. RED has never functioned in the manner that you describe, either on live or on PTR.

From Drysc's post: WoW Forums -> Meta gem question.

Instead of getting a 100% damage bonus with a crit, you would be getting a 103% damage bonus with a crit using that meta gem.

This additive effect is what I based my calculations on.

If RED has been tested as giving 9% larger crits at any point as post #76 suggests, I highly doubt that it was intended -- this result has been tested in-game?

Anyways, thanks for clearing that up Epiphenom, I'll adjust my results to reflect a 6% crit benefit instead of 3% for now.

Roywyn · 09/04/07, 7:56 PM

Originally Posted by epiphenom

As I said, however, the point seems moot. In the current build, it looks like RED has no effect at all. I don't know whether it's still working on melee crit damage or not.

Went back to test it on arcane missiles, talented, with 175% crit damage.
742-743 hits, 1299 crits, both, with and without the RED meta gem (at +1206 arcane damage in both tests, swapped gear around to stay at the same +damage.)

Confirmed that it's not working on spells on the current PTR.

aliengrey · 09/07/07, 10:31 PM

This better not go live. I have no desire to use the MSD or any other meta gem for that matter.

Asmodeu · 09/19/07, 1:43 AM

Sliding a little off topic here, but here goes...

The tooltip reads 'requires more blue gems than yellow gems.'

Does this mean I need 1 yellow gem?

Rajni · 09/19/07, 2:32 AM

Nope.

However, green and orange both count as "yellow" gems for the purpose of activating the gem.

Ele' · 09/19/07, 5:36 AM

Originally Posted by epiphenom

As I said, however, the point seems moot. In the current build, it looks like RED has no effect at all. I don't know whether it's still working on melee crit damage or not.

I know that this is quite an old topic, but I could not find any confirmation that the RED is still working with melee crits on the PTR. Did someone test this, just to be sure ?

Frenzi · 09/20/07, 6:20 AM

Its rather annoying, there is no patch notes for this so we can only hope it is a bug. I have created a post on the official forum and I keep it bumped but I think we all know the likelihood of a response.

If a melee could test it on the PTR and a hunter would be a really useful test to see if maybe they reverted it back to its original concept or whether it is just not working at all?