Their DPS output isn't nearly as high though. When our DPS warrior is spec'd Fury, he tops the charts. When he's doing Arena stuff and we drag him along and he doesn't bother to respec, he's mediocre and hardly worth the slot until we hit 20%.
Think that might be due to arena talents versus PVE talents? :P Fury will generally do more damage, but WF is a bigger help for Arms than for Fury.
Thank you for the mathematical analysis Crazypie. It would be interesting to also see the benefit GoA gives druids and shaman.
Shaman would be somewhat close to warriors. They gain little from agility pass the 88/22.1=~4crit. It's probably a 50-70 dps increase. Druids, don't really know or care. They're usually in our tank group .
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6WsB8dZcE
Raiding music that gets things done.
The best Theorycraft and Mathcraft happens after a raid and before the sun comes up.
If you're in the habit of bringing Arms warriors to a raid for their DPS than I suppose yah you may as well drop whatever you'd like at that point.
Hey now, mid-low end guilds (barely killing Gruul) probably get just as much out of Arms warriors as they do Fury on the higher end encounters; the lack of enough +Hit on plate, up to this point, has made our best guys rather sad pandas :-/ (yes, they know leather exists).
I am not your personal Frost Deathknight knowledge base. If you have a simple question, ask in the simple questions thread; if you have a more esoteric, specific, or complicated question, ask in the spec-appropriate thread.
My PM, WoWmail, and, especially, chat boxes are NOT the appropriate places for these questions.
That would be if it was 88 crit rating they were gaining from the GoA totem. It takes significantly more then 22.1 agi to gain 1% crit as a shaman.
Crap, how'd I overlook that. Really need to take a nap. It's 88/33.3 = 2.67crit. Probably still in the 50dps ballpark.
Hmm, didn't realize that. The agility conversion for shamans is a hell of a lot better then wars. Lucky . 88/25 = 3.52. Final Answer. I promise.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6WsB8dZcE
Raiding music that gets things done.
The best Theorycraft and Mathcraft happens after a raid and before the sun comes up.
It is listed there as 25agi = 1% crit for a Level 70 Shaman.
Just to add my $0.02. The correct answer for what Air totem to drop is "it depends", _however_ if you are in a melee DPS group, and there are at least two rogues, rogue/warrior, etc...Windfury is really the right answer. As gear increases, Windfury will pull ahead even further as the totem of choice. The only time that there should really be a doubt in your mind as to what air totem to drop, is in a 5-man or _maybe_ Kara (depending on your group set-up). Anything bigger, though, the way forward is Windfury with a group that will make good use of it.
Think that might be due to arena talents versus PVE talents? :P Fury will generally do more damage, but WF is a bigger help for Arms than for Fury.
Well of course that's why. I'm just trying to figure out why in the hell people are talking about "optimizing DPS totems" here and then they throw a MS warrior into the group.
Not to derail the thread into the same subject that was already debated in another, but 31/30 is a build that includes both MS and Flurry. While not a 33/25/3 or whatever pure Arena build, does include MS and it does so much better with WF than without because of Slam. I can see the Arena build fallnig behind by a decent margin, but it will still gain a huge benefit from WF as it can use Slam (and hamstring) just the same. 2h builds gain a bigger boost from WF than a DW build, which is to say they need it to produce good DPS in a raid setting. These builds almost always have Commanding Presence as well.
Everyone forgets that Mutilate spec should have poison on the main hand in the form of instant poison which is removed by WF. A 30% instant damage proc against non nature immune mobs is very signifigant. You must remove this in any damage calculation from WF when used against Rogue DPS.
You also have to take into effect the miss rate for white damage as opposed to Yellow attacks which do not have the Dual Wield miss rate. You also have to take into consideration that the attacks that count most in dagger DPS is Backstab/mutilate crits which return more DPS per crit than white attacks and have a talent boost to crit rate from these attacks.
Mute does not require poison to be on the mh... it requires that the mob be poisoned for the extra damage. WF does not remove a poison, the rogue must remove the poison from the mh weapon to gain benefit of WF. Instant poison is ~28 dps, windfury for a mutilate rogue is ~60dps. So, yeah, between instant and WF any rogue that chooses instant, no matter what thier spec, is probably a dagger rogue without improved backstab...
I don't even want to touch your estimations on white damage vs yellow damage. But I'll tell you this, white damage on any combat build far succeeds any damage from mutilate or backstab. By a large percentage. You're talking ~60% white and 30% mute/bs.
1) TA if the dps warrior is going to pull aggro. Our fury warrior is a maniac, and WILL pull aggro if he goes all out on a fight. Dropping TA lets dps/rage generation continue while helping to ensure no crazy WF damage spikes until our tanks get a decent threat lead.
2) Grounding totem if it will stop someone in my group from taking a spell. After the spell has been absorbed, I put WF right back down. Since devs hate grounding totem, I rarely find myself doing this anymore.
3) Nature resist totem needs to be down for NR fights and we have no hunter in the group.
That being said, it seems like this topic ends up being brought up entirely too often. If the compiled data on shaman buffs/WF effectiveness were on WoWwiki would that keep people from repeating the same questions here?
I don't even want to touch your estimations on white damage vs yellow damage. But I'll tell you this, white damage on any combat build far succeeds any damage from mutilate or backstab. By a large percentage. You're talking ~60% white and 30% mute/bs.
When I was still mutilate, white damage hovered around 40-45% with mutilate in the 25-28% range.
WF totem costs 325 mana (untalented) so dropping that every 7 seconds would be: ( fightLenSec / 7 ) * 325. With a 2.5sec cooldown on SR, that would be:
( (60 / 2.5) / 7 ) * 325 = Just under 7k mana cost to refresh every 7 seconds exactly.
This does not count the mana cost of Tranquil Air, which is 6% of your base mana.
It is my opinion that this is not an effective strategy. Not only due to the mana cost, but due to the constant triggering of the GCD. I think it would be a total PITA to maintain during a battle.
That being said, it seems like this topic ends up being brought up entirely too often. If the compiled data on shaman buffs/WF effectiveness were on WoWwiki would that keep people from repeating the same questions here?
If people can't be bothered to read or search threads here, I see no reason why putting on WoWwiki would change things.
Apologies if the thread is redundant, however having a thread for this info and debate might be more useful than having the topic debated in hijacked threads on other topics.
If people can't be bothered to read or search threads here, I see no reason why putting on WoWwiki would change things.
This thread, itself, is an example of why it should be on WoW Wiki. When you do a forum thread search, it is very easy to miss a bit of information while scanning for good information. This is almost the same as saying, "I see no reason why anyone should require a task list. You all know what the project is, and you were at the meeting." I am not sure if you just feel the need to re-enforce the forum name, or what, but a WoW Wiki page maintained by some of the fantastic theorycrafters here would probably help things immensely. Information contained in forum threads is frequently: outdated, incorrect, difficult to understand out of the context of other posts in the thread (which may or may not be correct or up to date), dependent on other posts in the same thread (or different threads). It really doesn't seem, to me, to be a question at all.
Now, the question of who would create, and maintain those pages is another story.
WF totem costs 325 mana (untalented) so dropping that every 7 seconds would be: ( fightLenSec / 7 ) * 325. With a 2.5sec cooldown on SR, that would be:
( (60 / 2.5) / 7 ) * 325 = Just under 7k mana cost to refresh every 7 seconds exactly.
This does not count the mana cost of Tranquil Air, which is 6% of your base mana.
It is my opinion that this is not an effective strategy. Not only due to the mana cost, but due to the constant triggering of the GCD. I think it would be a total PITA to maintain during a battle.
Using rank 1 WF helps with the mana issues. I can sustain WF1/GoA or WF1/TA just fine if I don't have anything else important to do with my mana. The mana cost isn't the killer, it's exactly as Ilmater said: you spend half your time under the GCD from those two totems alone. The amount of DPS I lose doing it is probably more than my party gains from having GoA. WF/TA is just as useless because the only reason I typically want TA is for my own benefit, and I'm not going to be threat-capped if I can't do anything but autoattack half the time.
Anyway, me and a rogue hashed out the math a couple weeks back after an argument over which totem I should drop for one particular party. A group with me, a kitty, two combat sword rogues, and a combat dag rogue benefits slightly more from WF than from GoA. That's assuming Gruul/Mag/early SSC gear, so for a guild just starting Maulgar your mileage may vary, but basically, WF > GoA if you've got at least three party members who benefit from WF.
Mute does not require poison to be on the mh... it requires that the mob be poisoned for the extra damage. WF does not remove a poison, the rogue must remove the poison from the mh weapon to gain benefit of WF. Instant poison is ~28 dps, windfury for a mutilate rogue is ~60dps. So, yeah, between instant and WF any rogue that chooses instant, no matter what thier spec, is probably a dagger rogue without improved backstab...
I don't even want to touch your estimations on white damage vs yellow damage. But I'll tell you this, white damage on any combat build far succeeds any damage from mutilate or backstab. By a large percentage. You're talking ~60% white and 30% mute/bs.
Poisons must be removed for WF to have any effect yes so it's one or the other. You cannot continue to generate Poison DPS while taking advantage of WF on your main hand. Since most mutilate builds take advantage of vile poisons and imrpoved poisons you will have to remove that DPS from a rogue's DPS total before you start adding additional DPS. So it's not an addition of 60 DPS at all (although I'm not sure where you get the 60DPS from since WF is fully dependant on weapons and gear), it is in fact only an addition of (Rogue DPS) - (poison from MH DPS) + (WF DPS).
Mutilate Backstab is also very crit dependant seeing that a non crit is generally a waste of energy compared to using a Sinister Strike (based on damage per energy). Mutilate also generates a 3rd combo point when a crit is scored which contributes to energy regeneration from relentless strikes.
This is very complex issue with dagger rogues due to the fact that their most meaningful attacks, that are compliemented highly by their talent builds, are in fact circumvented by reliance on pure white damage for a DPS boost. Dagger rogues (at least during level 60 raiding) used to rely heavily on crit and AP and less on +hit which was more a combat rogue department. Less +hit means more chances to miss those "DPS increasing" WF attacks which lowers the effectiveness of the pure WF DPS increase.
I still cannot see how you can stick a straight pure DPS increase from WF when talking about dagger spec rogues when they lose so much from other sources in order to make any signifigant gains.
I have found that the answer is (almost) always Windfury. That extra hit is a total monster. My baseline is actually 2 classes in the group for Windfury > GoA. In 25-mans (Gruul is what I'm using for this) I am always using Windfury because it is almost always possible to get a melee DPS group together that will just tear up. In Karazan I find that it depends. At the start of Kara, (as in our raid was starting) I used GoA much more than WF because we have a Feral OT, and the Agi helped the MT out as well. I find, now, that I am using Windfury even if there is a hunter in the group or someone who would benifit from GoA, simply because having Windfury up on the MT, and Rogue is netting more DPS, and since our tanks are now far better geared and experienced, GoA isn't as useful to them.
I think that it is really easy to look-over the benifit of the extra hit (even though it shouldn't be) because we keep wanting to inject more stat crunching. In reality, what we are providing with GoA is a buff to existing damage. Windfury is a whole additional hit. My biggest hangup was that it was "lame" Windfury and so it therefore can't do as much for them as my WF buff does for me. This really caused me to under-value the totem because it wasn't "as good as"...what I neglected was that...it's a freaking additional hit! It's not like you can drink a "Give me an extra hit" flask. Extra hits mean more procs on trinkets, enchants, and talents.
If you don't have a feral druid in your group:
Drop Windfury totem and SoE totem.
If you do have a feral druid in your group:
Drop GoA, SoE and probably even flame tongue weapon.
Increasing the dps of EVERYBODY in a group is better than increasing the dps of 2 or 3 others in the group. flame tongue totem is also good for a bit extra damage.
Last edited by Ralgarog : 06/05/07 at 7:39 PM.
Reason: mixed up something.
If you have a feral druid in your group:
Drop Windfury totem and SoE totem.
If you have no feral druid in your group:
Drop GoA, SoE and probably even flame tongue weapon.
Increasing the dps of EVERYBODY in a group is better than increasing the dps of 2 or 3 others in the group. flame tongue totem is also good for a bit extra damage.
I think you need to read the rest of this thread before posting nonsense. I also don't see why if you have a feral WF is better than GoA, and when you don't then suddenly GoA becomes better - by your logic (which is seriously flawed, btw) then you should always drop GoA with a feral because they will gain some benefit out of it.
If you have a feral druid in your group:
Drop Windfury totem and SoE totem.
If you have no feral druid in your group:
Drop GoA, SoE and probably even flame tongue weapon.
Dropping WF because you have a feral druid is asinine, because they do not benefit from it.
Increasing the dps of EVERYBODY in a group is better than increasing the dps of 2 or 3 others in the group. flame tongue totem is also good for a bit extra damage.
Not when the increased dps for those 2-3 is ~ 150-200 dps each minimum (non-mutilate rogues and Warriors), and the gains for the others are ~ 40 dps each
Ralgarog, I believe that you think that what you are saying is true. It may even be the case that in your circumstances it is, *however* dropping Windfury totem for a single person in the group (depending on gear/class) frequently adds more DPS than dropping GoA for the whole group.
Something to keep in mind, too, is that FT totem does _not_ scale with Spell Damage. It has no scaling factor at all (AFAIK) which means that, while FT + GoA may be better at gear level A, it will not get any better as the gear level increases.
Er but I think you meant to re-order the Feral argument. Ferals get _no_ benifit from Windfury.
06/05/07, 5:01 PM
.
. 88/25 = 3.52. Final Answer. I promise.
Similar Threads
