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Old 07/09/07, 8:01 AM   #151
• Chicken
 
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Ginakursia
Goblin Warlock
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Doing some calculating based on a few parses I could find of different Protection Paladins (including myself), on average white hits and Seal of Righteousness would account for about 33% of the total threat produced by a Protection Paladin... Without Windfury.

Most Protection Paladins using a 1.8 speed weapon would equate to any windfury hits doing 58 damage per hit more, before mitigation, so let's say a 15% mitigation on that resulting in about 49 more damage on the white hits. Windfury changes it so that approximately 40% of the threat comes from auto-attacks and Seal of Righteousness, with the total threat generated being about 10% higher.

Without Windfury 67% of threat comes from Holy damage, so let's see how we benefit from Wrath of Air instead. Wrath of Air gives about a 5% increase to total threat generated if I run the numbers.

So it appears I was wrong; Windfury is indeed the better choice of totem to give to a Protection Paladin when it comes to threat. I'll admit these calculations probably weren't done perfectly, but the discrepancy is large enough between the two to be reliable, I think. The Paladin Tank TPS Spreadsheet disagrees with me though, as does my gut feeling; one difference is that above I didn't calculate in Misery, which is a 5% increase to holy damage threat as well, which might make a difference.

Edit:
I didn't take into account threat generated from Spiritual Attunement in this comparison, but since the point was basically comparing the extra threat benefit from Wrath of Air vs. Windfury that shouldn't really matter (much). It just means the total benefit to threat numbers and 'where does threat come from' numbers are a bit lower than the ones I've stated above.

Last edited by Chicken : 07/09/07 at 8:25 AM.

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Old 07/09/07, 6:25 PM   #152
Nemaa
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
A quote from an other topic, I don't want offtopic there:

Originally Posted by Malacort View Post
I posted these 2 macros in the totem thread, I use them all the time instead of shocking, as I'm there to make the whole group's dps better, not just my own.

MACRO 14 "G/WF" INV_Misc_QuestionMark
/castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, stopmacro;
END
MACRO 15 "TA/WF" INV_Misc_QuestionMark
/castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Tranquil Air Totem, stopmacro;
END
I'd like to insert stormstrike in this macro, I use this:
/castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, stopmacro;

I noticed it resets 9 seconds after I press the macro last time even if I did stormstrike. So if I spam this macro it never resets. I like spamming, do you have an idea how to solve this?

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Old 07/09/07, 6:39 PM   #153
Morelis
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
A quote from an other topic, I don't want offtopic there:



I'd like to insert stormstrike in this macro, I use this:
/castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, stopmacro;

I noticed it resets 9 seconds after I press the macro last time even if I did stormstrike. So if I spam this macro it never resets. I like spamming, do you have an idea how to solve this?
I'm not an expert on macros but if you changed it to:
/castsequence reset=combat Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem

I think is should work, when you spam at the start it would do each as the GCD permitted then it would hang on stormstrike until it's cooldown was up where it would start over again.

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Old 07/09/07, 6:54 PM   #154
Nemaa
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Shaman
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
It has a problem: If you can't do a stormstrike you won't be able to continue the macro and put down the WF what is more valuable to the melee group. Also if I change the order of agi and wf, the agility effect will disappear immediately upon putting down the wf totem.

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Old 07/09/07, 7:26 PM   #155
Morelis
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Nemaa View Post
It has a problem: If you can't do a stormstrike you won't be able to continue the macro and put down the WF what is more valuable to the melee group. Also if I change the order of agi and wf, the agility effect will disappear immediately upon putting down the wf totem.
Yea I think that's just a limitation inherent since 2.0, the lack of logical operators prevents "intelligent" macros like we had in the past.

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Old 07/09/07, 7:33 PM   #156
Galred
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Uldum
My main issue with this thread is what people consider to be a 'melee dps group'.

To me, a melee dps group is a shaman + 4 players who are either warriors or rogues. If you have less than 4 melee dps classes, the raid isn't putting much into the idea of melee dps! A warrior in this group should simply mean Windfury gets dropped - short of an insane level of theorycrafting with an exqusitely detailed spreadsheet, I'm not seeing how the awesome Windfury boost to warrior dps along with the good boost to rogue dps is < GoA so the rogues can poison their MH weapon.

Sure, occasionally a hunter or feral druid will wind up in that 'melee dps' group. but they shouldn't unless the encounter somehow needs to split melee dps among different groups. TSA is a lousy buff once your players are geared into Karazhan, and (as mentioned elsewhere) you'd get a bigger benefit from putting a BM hunter in a caster group than excluding a warrior or rogue from the Windfury goodness.

Now if there's no warrior in your melee dps group, sure go ahead and drop GoA. Assuming a talented GoA, that will be 88 RAP plus ~2% crit for a hunter in the group (should you have one) and if it's a MM hunter, they'll get an extra 10% RAP via talents. I'm quite certain however that your rogues would rather have Battle Shout than TSA or FI or LotP.

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Old 07/10/07, 1:43 AM   #157
Xoya
Bald Bull
 
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Xoya
Orc Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Well, as an example from earlier in the thread, Galred, my guild frequently has one full melee dps group (resto shaman, fury warrior, 3 rogues) and a mish-mash group (one or two hunters, a feral druid, the extra rogue if we have one, and another resto shaman). But yeah, I guess I'd probably refer to the last group as a "melee dps group" just out of habit, since it -has- one or two melee dps in it and I'm dropping "physical" totems. Maybe it's better termed as a "physical" dps group then.

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Old 07/10/07, 2:07 AM   #158
galzohar
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Other than windfury I can tell almost for sure that battleshout is the #1 party buff for rogues. Just go to a spreadsheet and check the amount of AP needed for 1% DPS increase and compare it to the amount of crit needed, then you can even see if it's better than windfury or not. Afaik that's where all the "use 3Xrogue+war+shaman" people are coming from. Adding any class that doesn't benefit from windfury will probably not make it worth it to not drop windfury still as 2 rogues + warrior still benefit a lot more from windfury however sometimes you simply don't have 3 rogues in the raid.

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Old 07/19/07, 2:46 PM   #159
Shizzle
Glass Joe
 
Human Warrior
 
Warsong
I realize that this thread is dedicated to melee groups only, but typically our raid is setup with a marks hunter in the melee group for trueshot.

For the first time in recent history, we were able to get an elemental shammy in our group for Leo. The group comp was then, Hunter, Elem Sham, Dagger Rogue, Feral Druid, Fury Warrior(Me). I argued that WF would still be better DPS than the combined effects of GoA, however since we were running around on a lot, the shammy should just drop GoA since the hunter was probably going to be in range of it more than we were.

Throughout the fight, I noticed that I was actually in range of the totems every single time I was in to DPS. So my question is, with that group setup, is WF still optimal? I was going to ask the hunter and druid what kind of DPS that GoA adds, I'll post back later when I find out. I'd really like to get some math crunched on this, rather than just saying "Its better"

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Old 07/19/07, 3:08 PM   #160
Iol
Don Flamenco
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Durotan
The combined dps added will be less dps gained "from the group as a whole" trough GoA than the dps gained from the single fury warrior, should he be given WF totem instead.

The 2 fold nature of WF (more dmg yes, but more rage too.) makes it this way.

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Old 07/19/07, 6:51 PM   #161
Stopokingme
Don Flamenco
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Azjol-Nerub (EU)
Hmmm considering you can't really melee during whirlwinds GoA might be best for human phases, but WF should be way better for the demon phase with that particular group composition. Overall, WF is just flat out best.

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Old 07/19/07, 8:05 PM   #162
Colan
Von Kaiser
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Zul'Jin
Anybody have the actually math of a windfury's dps increase vs. agility? Some people I know have a hard time believing that the benefit of windfury for the dps warrior outweighs the benefits of agility for everybody else without seeing the numbers.

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Old 07/25/07, 12:38 AM   #163
tholex
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Shizzle View Post
I realize that this thread is dedicated to melee groups only, but typically our raid is setup with a marks hunter in the melee group for trueshot.

For the first time in recent history, we were able to get an elemental shammy in our group for Leo. The group comp was then, Hunter, Elem Sham, Dagger Rogue, Feral Druid, Fury Warrior(Me). I argued that WF would still be better DPS than the combined effects of GoA, however since we were running around on a lot, the shammy should just drop GoA since the hunter was probably going to be in range of it more than we were.

Throughout the fight, I noticed that I was actually in range of the totems every single time I was in to DPS. So my question is, with that group setup, is WF still optimal? I was going to ask the hunter and druid what kind of DPS that GoA adds, I'll post back later when I find out. I'd really like to get some math crunched on this, rather than just saying "Its better"
You would get about 200-300 DPS from WF... That's more than the rest of them get from GOA combined.... the rogue would benefit a lot too... yea it's > GoA

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