[dps Warrior] Hit is hugely overrated

Mooks · 06/05/07, 5:26 PM

I've noticed a disturbing trend when looking through the profiles of the best fury warriors on many different servers: hit rating above 250 and crit % below 26%.. In zerker.

For the longest time I looked at these profiles and agreed. "You can't hit, you can't crit" I kept thinking to myself. But the fact of the matter is that with the glancing blow change, the crit cap is no longer an issue. Attack from the back like a reasonable dpser, and the crit cap will be 100 -24.6 -5.6 -5.6 -25= 39.2%, without any hit at all!

So the question is this: with the crit cap essentially a non-issue, how do we value hit % against crit%. I believe that any hit rating past 5% (8% with precision), the point where it stops affecting your special attacks, is somewhat of a waste. The reason for this is twofold:

1. Hit % past this point only affects your white damage.

2. As gear improves further, the fraction of our dps that is white will decrease. More heroic strikes as a result of more and more rage.

Even using the gear of a fairly baseline dps warrior, such as myself, we see that about 50% of his damage is yellow, and 50% is white. Since hit rating only affects the white portion of this damage, we can tentatively say that 15.8 hit rating equals a .5% increase to dps. And since crit rating affects both the white and yellow portions of this damage, we can say that 22.1 crit rating equals a 1% increase to dps.

Both of these percentages ignore the benefit that increased damage, and thus increased rage, can give a warrior, but since that benefit is the same in both cases it is irrelevant for comparison.

By this logic, 31.6 hit rating is approximately equivalent to 22.1 crit rating, even though the stats are itemized in a 1/1 ratio. This says to me that past that initial 8% with precision, crit rating is by far the superior stat. Would love to hear some feedback on this, agreement or disagreement.

• Aldriana · 06/05/07, 5:52 PM

Well, I can't comment on fury warriors for certain, but I'd like to mention one consideration that you may have overlooked, that has proved to be a significant factor for rogues: procs.

There are any number of items with excedingly powerful procs floating around (Dragonspine Trophy is the notable one, but there are others) - and these cannot proc unless they hit. Rogues have started to find that even though hit only affects white damage, and crit effects all damage - *and* we do more than double damage on crits - hit is still the superior stat. Now, some of the effects that make this true (poison, combat potency) aren't relevant to fury warriors; but others (such as Dragonspine Trophy) still are. Something to think about when you're comparing the relative values of hit and crit.

tetracycloide · 06/05/07, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mooks

Both of these percentages ignore the benefit that increased damage, and thus increased rage, can give a warrior, but since that benefit is the same in both cases it is irrelevant for comparison.

As far as I know white hits for a warrior only add 50% damage on crit, not 100%. So turning a miss into a hit adds 100% of a hit's worth of rage while turning a hit into a crit only adds 50% of a hits worth of rage.

• zeidrich · 06/05/07, 5:55 PM

Originally Posted by tetracycloide

As far as I know white hits for a warrior only add 50% damage on crit, not 100%. So turning a miss into a hit adds 100% of a hit's worth of rage while turning a hit into a crit only adds 50% of a hits worth of rage.

All melee hits add 100% damage on a crit. Even warlock melee crits

Mooks · 06/05/07, 5:57 PM

Correct. All white melee hits add 100%.

Aldriana, that's an interesting point that I hadn't considered at all. I feel that combat potency and poison procs are the majority of the reason that rogues are finding hit the superior stat though, as you said.

Drakul · 06/05/07, 6:06 PM

Regarding haste as Aldriana said, you gain a huge haste increase due to flurry, which yes, is procd of crits, but doesn't it become essentially less useful based on the amount of hit you have.

You may have 35% crit but with only 8% /9% hit percentage, flurry doesn't seem to be used to it's full potential. Very similiar to a rogue, if you don't have enough hit, if affects the benefit of SnD as well.

• Aldriana · 06/05/07, 6:06 PM

Well, combat potency and poison are certainly big - but Dragonspine Trophy and Windfury are huge too.

In my current gear + spec (which includes Dragonspine), the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet values 1 crit rating as worth 1.61 AP, and 1 hit rating as worth 2.47 AP, or:

1% crit = 35.5 AP
1% hit = 39.0 AP

If I replace Dragonspine with, oh, say, Bloodlust Brooch, crit goes up to 1.64 AP, and hit drops to 2.26 AP, yielding:

1% crit = 36.3 AP
1% hit = 35.7 AP

If I additionally take off Windfury, crit returns to 1.61, but hit drops down to 1.89, yielding:

1% crit = 35.5 AP
1% hit = 29.8 AP

Long story short: don't underestimate your procs

.

Mooks · 06/05/07, 6:10 PM

Those are pretty impressive numbers. I hadn't considered that windfury only procced on hits as well.

lazerpewpew · 06/05/07, 6:16 PM

And one more thing, you can not raid buff your CTH (chance to hit), but you can raid buff your crit chance by potting, aura, and weapon stones.

Koralee · 06/05/07, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mooks

I've noticed a disturbing trend when looking through the profiles of the best fury warriors on many different servers: hit rating above 250 and crit % below 26%.. In zerker.

For the longest time I looked at these profiles and agreed. "You can't hit, you can't crit" I kept thinking to myself. But the fact of the matter is that with the glancing blow change, the crit cap is no longer an issue. Attack from the back like a reasonable dpser, and the crit cap will be 100 -24.6 -5.6 -5.6 -25= 39.2%, without any hit at all!

So the question is this: with the crit cap essentially a non-issue, how do we value hit % against crit%. I believe that any hit rating past 5% (8% with precision), the point where it stops affecting your special attacks, is somewhat of a waste. The reason for this is twofold:

1. Hit % past this point only affects your white damage.

2. As gear improves further, the fraction of our dps that is white will decrease. More heroic strikes as a result of more and more rage.

Even using the gear of a fairly baseline dps warrior, such as myself, we see that about 50% of his damage is yellow, and 50% is white. Since hit rating only affects the white portion of this damage, we can tentatively say that 15.8 hit rating equals a .5% increase to dps. And since crit rating affects both the white and yellow portions of this damage, we can say that 22.1 crit rating equals a 1% increase to dps.

Both of these percentages ignore the benefit that increased damage, and thus increased rage, can give a warrior, but since that benefit is the same in both cases it is irrelevant for comparison.

By this logic, 31.6 hit rating is approximately equivalent to 22.1 crit rating, even though the stats are itemized in a 1/1 ratio. This says to me that past that initial 8% with precision, crit rating is by far the superior stat. Would love to hear some feedback on this, agreement or disagreement.

"You can't hit, you can't crit" is wrong
crit replace a hit. what I mean is you could have 70% miss/block/dodge/parry with 30% crit wont mean you'll never dmg the target, it only mean each time you'll dmg the target, it will be with a crit.

why the +hit it so important? you said it. It only affect the white dmg. More white dmg = more rage.
so instead of missing, you hit and you gain rage.
faster rage generation = more special attack
faster rage generation = more execute, not only that, but for more dmg since I was able to generate more rage than needed for the next execute during the global cooldown.
When playing my warrior, I was almost always full of rage, no matter what I could use. I was a point where Tactical Mastery was almost useless when I was doing dps in raid since I could regenerate a full bar in a matter of second.

if that is overrated... then I think there is something I never understood while playing my fury warrior.
Once you neglated the 24% miss, +hit become almost useless.

• Aldriana · 06/05/07, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by Koralee

"You can't hit, you can't crit" is wrong
crit replace a hit. what I mean is you could have 70% miss/block/dodge/parry with 30% crit wont mean you'll never dmg the target, it only mean each time you'll dmg the target, it will be with a crit.

True - if you're below the hit cap. But prior to the recent glancing blow nerf, the crit cap was low enough to be a concern; if you stacked crit to the exclusion of hit too strongly, you *could* get into a situation where you were losing crits because they weren't hitting.

why the +hit it so important? you said it. It only affect the white dmg. More white dmg = more rage.
so instead of missing, you hit and you gain rage.
faster rage generation = more special attack
faster rage generation = more execute, not only that, but for more dmg since I was able to generation more rage than needed for the next execute during the global cooldown.

Yes, but increasing your crit% also increases your rage generation since (I believe) crits give more rage than regular hits.

Obviously, more rage generation is good, and hit provides that; but other stats grant rage generation as well, so the relevant question is the relative values.

Of course, I don't think this a question that's gonna be solved without some careful computations being done; the full impact of Dragonspine Trophy on the value of hit for rogues has only come into focus in the past month or so with the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet (or at least, I hadn't seen anything about it previously). Honestly, that's sort of what spreadsheets are for - I haven't honestly looked at the fury warrior sheets lately to see if they model this sort of thing, but if they don't it might be a worthwhile project to develop one that does.

Machinator · 06/05/07, 7:05 PM

1% crit will increase your rage/s as much as 1% hit. But then the +crit also affects your specials, while beyond a certain point +hit will not. Why so many still sacrifice to get +hit past that point I still dont know. Even with only 124 hit + talents (10.86%) I average about 10 hits in 10 secs so I dont think procs would have that much of an effect, though I am going to try to see how much.

• sordee · 06/05/07, 7:29 PM

In a simplified world doesn't it come down to this?
1% crit > 1% hit
but
1 CR < 1 HR

I.e. crit is great, but point per point, HR has more value than Crit Rating.

• zeidrich · 06/05/07, 7:45 PM

What is the current values for:

Yellow Hit cap? (7.6%?)
Crit cap?

The one benefit of hit over crit is that it makes your rage come in more reliably. But overall, it is a decrease in DPS since it has no effect on special's damage, but equal in rage generation in comparison to crit.

Hit will make you gain more rage from unbridled wrath.
Crit will make you gain more rage and dps from flurry.

Hit rating costs fewer points in item budget than crit rating.

Due to the item budgeting formula, an item with both crit and hit gets a bit of a bonus to both of them. I wouldn't be so quick to quantify 1% hit as .5% dps increase and 1% crit as 1% dps increase. There's too many variables, especially with a class with as complex mechanics as a warrior.

Impale increases the crit damage by 20%, but only on yellow damage; crit triggers deep wounds. Hit past the cap only effects white damage, but then white damage is what gives you rage, thus begets more yellow damage, which is not affected by the extra hit.

I would say that at some point there's an optimal ratio of Hit & Crit on an item that would effect the most damage, where hit is not equal to 0, even after you hit the cap on hit rating, just because the item valuation gives some of those stats as bonuses.

Wixi · 06/05/07, 8:43 PM

Remember though, a majority of a Fury warriors damage is White damage, thus has a hit cap.