Daefuin

I've read through most of the warlock threads on this forum and didn't see anything relating to sustained DPS comparing different trinkets. Does anyone have math (or a link?) that breaks down the dps gains for different trinkets?

For example:

Icon of the Silver Crescent
Eye of Magtheridon
Quagmirran's Eye

Which trinket is the best for sustained dps? The overall highest passive damage from the Eye of Mag? The constant haste procs from Quags? Or the "click" effect from the icon.

 

ReverendSin

Icon and Darkmoon Card: Crusade, we had this discussion in....hmm, one of the warlock threads...around here somewhere...

[Warlock] how do you do high DPS?

There we go.

 

Dizzyxes

The post linked gives a lot of info about the Crusade trinket, but not all the others and how they compare to one another.

Anyone have some raw numbers on all the trinkets for warlocks?

 

Fafhrd

The link below might help you.
As one might expect the usefullness of certain trinkets changes based on your hit/crit/spec/spell damage. And also what kind of encounter you are doing;

- The Crusade trinket is pretty worthless in fight where you have 6-7s breaks (which is almost all).
- Ashtongue Talisman is very good for trash with multiple targets
- Eye of Mag is good if you have low hit%
- Icon of the Silver Crescent lets you plan a lot and output damage when you need to.
- Skull of Guldan: need :P
- Void Star Talisman is excellent for Felguard pvp. but also helps keeping it alive in PVE, and for a well geared Demo warlock probably one of the best trinkets, if not the best.

SimulationCraft/Trinkets/Warlock - Shadowpriest.com Wiki

 

constantius

Almost anything will proc this trinket and keep the stack alive, though. Name a fight where you honestly expect to just stand around for 9+ seconds?

Going down the list:
- Maulgar: no
- Gruul: no
- Magtheridon: no
- Hydross: no
- Lurker: no (unless your guild RIPS the adds apart, in which case, you might be just over 10 seconds, and lose your stack -- we average 8 seconds to go)
- Leotheras: no
- Morogrim: no
- FLK: not if you're smart and time your movement from add to add properly
- Vashj: no
- Al'ar: possible with meteor and Quill
- Solarian: no
- VR: no
- Kael'thas: yes, in between the adds in Phase 1 ... but Phase 1 doesn't matter, so who cares?

So in all of T4 and T5 ... there is *one* fight (possibly two) where you will lose your stack. Any of the others should be easily obtained. Our shadowpriest loses his stack only on Al'ar, and only in Phase 1 while Quilling. The rest of the time he has it up for the entire boss fight.

 

Bahkauv

Magtheridon: If you have to click or if you jump around shortly before finishing a cast, you have to decide between possibly wasting mana on a spell you don´t need at that moment (refresh curse or dot) or let the stack drop to zero. Sometimes you have no chance at all to keep the stack up.

Lurker: Same here. If your shadow bolt is nearly finished when the Lurker dives, you turn around and watch the adds climbing the platform, getting ready for combat and after some seconds you can target them and cast something. Dropping the stack or wasting mana on some curse?

Leotheras: We are still not very experienced, have killed Leo only twice. During a Whirlwind I am busy running away No time for casting anything.

I have exchanged the trinket for my good old Neltharion's Tear or Xi'ri's Gift (for trash). I still need Scryer's Bloodgem to get 202 spell hit rating, and using Neltharion's Tear I could resocket some items with crit/dam instead of hit/dam.

 

rochan

Don't let anyone fool you, Crusade is the best trinket pre-Illidan.

 

PSGarak

In my experience, worst-case scenario, I refresh Curse of Shadows to give myself another ten seconds. Hell, if I know I'm not going to be able to re-cast for the next 8 seconds, it's worth it to refresh a fading DoT a tick or two early. The loss of 300ish mana is irrelevant--if you're running around for 8 seconds, you have time to lifetap.
My experience only runs as high as gruul mag, and VR, but gruul's shatter stun is about as hard as it gets, and I can still manage to keep it from falling off 90% of the time.

Also, can we get Neltharion's Tear ranked up there? Some of us still have it, and for a legacy item it's pretty astounding. =P

 

Reddayspring

I love my Crusade card for affliction as much as the next person

I just got an eye of mag not that long ago, but it really seems like it's pretty worthless for PvE. If you're getting procs in more than 1 in 100 casts, your geared baddly for PvE.


I've been switching over to 0/21/40 sb spam and trying to trinket for that, I find myself using Bloodgem + xiri/icon/nexus horn (wtb sextant) my biggest issue with the idea of using the crusade card as ds/snf is that it takes a long time to stack, and there are a lot of unavoidable movement needs that mess up chain nuking to keep procs up and it takes nearly 20+ seconds to refresh the stack while dps'ing effectively.

 

◊ Kyth

It depends on your spec. Since SB is a 2.5 second cast with flight time (stack doesn't refresh until the nuke lands), it's actually very easy to lose your stack as destruction (unfortunately.) If you're on CoS/CoE you can refresh those, but that can even be a challenge because you don't have Grim Reach (or if you're on CoD.) Shadowburn helps once every 15 seconds, but not when you want to refresh fast both before and after an event.

I keep Quag's eye around as backup. I wish I could justify Sextant (it dropped for us this past week but I passed on it to a fire mage) but our crit rate is low relative to an elemental shaman or a fire mage.

I wish there was another good trinket for a destruction warlock to pair with Icon. (conversely: I wish I could believe Mag's eye is good and that the simulations were appropriately accounting for everything.)

 

DaveA50

To get 10 stacks up quickly at the start of a fight, just spam rank 1 curse of weakness. It takes 15 seconds and almost no mana, and it gives you a good threat buffer at the start of the fight.

 

Bahkauv

Without doing the math, I assume that it will take a very long time for the Crusade trinket to beat any other reasonable trinket if you use this procedure. A very long time.

 

Fafhrd

If your average dps is 1000 on a fight you will lose 1.5 seconds refreshing the Crusade trinket with a nonsense spell. That is 1500 damage lost. To make up for the damage lost you will have to do straight up damage for a long time (hard to calculate because you would be building up the stack again if you decided not to cast the nonsense spell). Anyway, it's usually NOT worth it dps-wise to "save" the stack if you can cast a damage spell instead. Being affliction and having had the trinket for a while now:

- Maulgar: no, unless you're on enslave duty.
- Gruul: yes, Shatter makes you lose it usually.
- Magtheridon: Yes, cube duty.
- Hydross: Yes, banish duty, need to stop dots at transitions (some guilds)
- Lurker: yes. the submerge time until adds being targettable makes you lose it.
- Leotheras: depends on how far away he runs.
- Morogrim: yes, water tombs
- FLK: no
- Vashj: yes, but only phase 1->2 unless you're very lucky with elemental spawns
- Al'ar: yes, usually every meteor
- Solarian: no
- VR: no
- Kael'thas: yes, phase 1, MC, Gravity Lapse
- Rage: no
- Anetheron: yes sleep
- Kaz'rogal: no
- Azgalor: yes, silence
- Archimonde: all the damn time
- Naj'entus: yes, shield
- Supremus: usually no
- Shade of Akama: no
- Teron: no
- Gurtogg: no
- RoS: just between phases
- Shahraz: yes, FA

 

Pidge

I have to agree with the above list. I can sometimes keep my stack up on RoS between p1 and p2 by spamming a curse on the adds and then throwing a fast CoT on Desire, but it's too dangerous to do on Anger so the stack usually falls then, which is arguably the most important phase for maximum dps. Also, it is generally a very bad trash trinket.

Still, on fights where it will stay up, it's one of the best and definitely worth having in your bag.

 

Silverstorm

Why is it hard on Al'ar? Maybe you do Al'ar differently, but I would be able to dot the adds to refresh, or at least CoW them or something. Granted, that means you have to be positioned appropriately. We generally always have at least one add up, and it climbs as high as 4-5 before the "AoE adds" call.

Here's my ideas on that list:

High King: easy
Gruul: Shatter could be difficult
Mag: haven't done it
Hydross: easy
Lurker: diving makes it hard, also if the adds are gone too early (why couldn't Lurker just repop early....)
Leotheras: Whirlwind...could be iffy
Morogrim: Watery Grave would be problematic
Fathom-Lord: haven't done it
Vashj: P1 -> P2 transition even if I'm on elementals
Void Reaver: easy
Al'ar: could be difficult depending on positioning and add control methods

That's all I've done so far, and I'm still looking for the Seven of Blessings. Stupid card just doesn't wanna show up on my server.

 

Pidge

In reference to the original post, does anyone have basic theorycraft numbers for trinkets like Icon, Mag's eye, Ashtongue Talisman? I don't really like the shadowpriest.com list because it's just a simulation of chaincasting against a single target. Different fights have different approaches and I'd like to know the basic damage output of those trinkets.

 

Bahkauv

I don´t think there is something like a "basic damage output". You have to model it for a specific situation, which is what shadowpriest.com does. Chaincasting should be close to the max damage output a trinket has to offer.

 

Silverstorm

Well...my understanding is that theorycrafting = chaincasting simulation. Unless your theorycrafting model can take into account specific windows of time where you can't cast or have to move or something like that, you won't find any theorycrafting.

What you want is empirical data from those here who have already used the trinkets in a variety of situations. You even mention the RoS fight in your previous post...so you obviously have the experience. Think about the fights and how you would use the trinkets.

For example, activated trinkets (Icon, etc) you want to use when you have 15-20 seconds to maximize its output. Crusade, you want continuous casting. Mag's Eye you should consider only the +54 dmg base...hit capping practically eliminates the proc. Ashtongue modifies based on Corruption ticks, so what's your uptime on Corruption?

 

Sardaukar

Depends. If your just standing around waiting for aggro anyways, then I dont see why it would hurt to spend the first 5 or 6 seconds building up some charges.

 

Pidge

Well, for AToS I was looking for the basic uptime given corruption up 100% of the time. The number I found 31%, but I wasn't sure I accounted for buff overlap properly and was looking for some verification.

 

Fafhrd

Yeah about 31% if you manage a perfect Corruption rotation (buff overlap accounted for, otherwise it would be 33%). Since you also cast other stuff a perfect rotation won't be possible. Simulation says about 28% with excellent cast timing.

However, as soon as you have more than one target, these number doubles, making AToS the best trinket of all, easily. (Maulgar, Hydross, Karathress, Vashj, Shade of Akama, Illidari Council)

I have all "affliction" trinkets except Skull, here's my advise for what to use (assuming hitcapped), most useful trinket first:

- Maulgar: Ashtongue, Crusade (multiple targets, casting all the time)
- Gruul: Icon, Eye
- Magtheridon: Crusade, Icon (if not on cube duty)
- Hydross: Crusade, Ashtongue (be fast with banishes, multi targets)
- Lurker: Ashtongue, Icon (multi targets sometimes)
- Leotheras: Icon, Eye (have to be careful with dots)
- Morogrim: Crusade, Icon (pop Icon when aoe:ing, pray you dont get Tomb)
- Karathress: Ashtongue, Crusade (multiple targets, yay)
- Vashj: Ashtongue, Crusade (noone beats affliction locks in phase 2)
- Al'ar: Crusade, Icon
- Solarian: Crusade, Icon
- VR: Crusade, Icon
- Kael'thas: Ashtongue, Icon (multiple targets in phase 2-5)
- Rage: Crusade, PVP-trinket (to get out of Ice Bolt)
- Anetheron: Icon, Ashtongue (multiple targets most of fight)
- Kaz'rogal: Crusade, Icon
- Azgalor: Ashtongue, Icon (multiple targets if you're in a good position)
- Archimonde: Icon, PVP-trinket
- Naj'entus: Icon, Eye
- Supremus: Crusade, Icon
- Shade of Akama: Ashtongue, Crusade
- Teron: Crusade, Icon
- Gurtogg: Crusade, Icon (pop Icon when you get Fel Rage )
- RoS: Icon, Crusade (pop Icon at phase 3, about 60%)
- Shahraz: Icon, Eye (you have less hit% cuz of shadow gear)
- Illidari Council: Ashtongue, Crusade (multiple targets)
- Illidan: Crusade, Icon (save icon for bursting demons/parasites/Illidan in cage)

If you get Skull, it's always going to be used of course. If you're destro-lock, Quagmirran's Eye is getting buffed a lot in 2.2, and will probably be best trinket for some fights.

 

rochan

Btw on Najentus you can refresh spells like CoW/CoR on him when he's bubbled to keep up the stack.

On the "Non Crusade" bosses. I usually just keep it on anyways because I'd rather lose 3 dps on one fight than use the wrong trinket for the whole clear if I forget to change them (which happens often :P).

 

Chimera

as an affliction warlock I use the Ashtongue trinket and Neltharion's tear (gg bwl loot)

I plan to replace the tear with icon when I get hit caped from other gear, or replace it with skull of gul'dan if I get that first.

 

zang1983

To me it looks like a lot of the best trinkets are more affliction-ish, than destro. I'm currently shadow destro (curse and shadowbolt spam only) and have Icon, Neltharions Tear and Quagmirrans Eye. Using Icon atm, and Nel Tear still, cause I'm not yet hitcapped, but once I can get 16% without tear I might switch that for my banked Quags eye, expecially since its getting buffed soon.

Any other trinkets out there that would be good for shadow destro? Crusade looks a little so-so to me atm tbh. Lots of fights where that stack is gonna tick out when you're destro, right?

 

rochan

Perhaps you can read the entire thread.

Most Destro are using Crusade.