• Disquette

Background
Over at the Enhancement Shaman thread, we have built dps simulators. Upon testing these simulators, we are finding that white hits are under-reported significantly. It seems obvious that Flurry being "messed up" is responsible for this. This throws a huge wrench in any calculations of Shaman or DPS warrior theory crafting.

Tooltip - What Flurry *should* do
That seems almost straight-forward. Now, perhaps you could read it as "finish all swings that are in-flight, then hasten the next 3". Or, "hasten all attacks, including ones mid-flight, until you have swung 3 times". Either way, 3 is a pretty critical number.

The problem tested

1) Get two weapons of varying speeds, with as large a delay as possible.
- I don't want to have the synchronized hits causing any funny business
- The larger the delay, the less that ping time will affect the results
2) Go hit a blasted lands mob, turn on combat log, making sure no weapons/armor has procs that would affect the outcome (mongoose, drakefist hammer, abacus, etc)

The problem illustrated
In the attached screenshot, I think the problem is very clearly illustrated. A critical strike is affecting up to 6 hits with the flurry buff. Here's how to read the chart:

blue shading - in a flurry state
pink shading - the last crit before flurry fades. At this point, only 3 more attacks should be affected
yellow shading - the number of attacks before combat log reads "Flurry fades from you."
no shading - period of non-fluried attacks.
grey/white column shading for "average" - This shows how many rows I'm actually averaging.

In short, not only does the combat log read "You gain flurry" and "Flurry fades from you", but the average swing speed in those periods actually agrees with the combat log. That is, this does not seem to be server-client lag. This is why I have the average columns there - so you can verify that when the combat log says flurry IS NOT active, it is indeed about 2.6speed mainhand, and 2.8speed offhand. Also, when flurry IS active, the speeds correctly register at an average about 2.0 mainhand and 2.15 offhand.

Seeing as how two classes are highly flurry dependent for their damage, I do believe it warrants its own thread.

I'll be happy to provide the raw combat log if asked.

Attached Thumbnails

 

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

◊ Lactose

Is this consistent? As in, does Flurry sometimes fade after 3 (or rather, less than 6) attacks?
Just by looking at these numbers, it kinda seems like the your next 3 swings part is applied to each weapon, instead of total swings?

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

WibbleNZ

It would be interesting to see results with different weapon speeds, it may be that flurry lasts for your next 3 MH swings.

 

• Disquette

I pulled out just the "really interesting" ones. Sometimes it lasts for 4 swings (2MH, 2OH), and, rarely, it lasts for 2 swings.

The 4 and 2 swings ones seem to happen when there is a single crit that gets flurried, and, as you'll notice, both of those sections i highlighted happen on the end of a flurry train that's already going.

I have to finish the parse though to get more data.

I'm actually very surprised at the lack of interest in this topic so, considering how important it is in determining dps. Thank you both for the questions/comments, and I'll post an update tomorrow when I've done more datamining.

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

• Apate

Please don't interpret silence as a lack of interest. I, for one, just don't have anything to add (aside form this), but I look forward to more testing. The mechanics of flurry are simply something I never really thought to question beyond the tooltip.

See you, auntie.
"You don't need a machine to make a rainbow. For rainbows are made of happy thoughts, and dreams, and chocolate unicorns, and gumdrops, and licorice sunsets, and fuzzy gumdrop bears, and sugar-coated chocolate gumdrop land."

Originally Posted by DeeNogger I am coming for you Apate.

 

◊ Lactose

Would you mind uploading the text file? I think I've got an idea.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Celandro

Looking at the log, it may be that flurry charges are queuing up. Specifically,
I120: 3 queued
I121: 3-1+3 = 5 queued
I122: 5-1 =4queue
I123: 4-1 =3queue
I124: 3-1 +3 =5queue
I125: 5-1 =4queue
I126: 4-1 +3 =6queue
I127: 6-1 =5queue
I128: 5-1 =4queue
I129: 4-1 +3=6queue
I130: 6-1 =5queue
I131: 5-1 =4queue
I132: 4-1 =3queue
I133: 3-1 =2queue
I134: 2-1 =1queue
I135: 1-1 =0queue
I136: Flurry fades


I148: 3 queued
I150: 3-1 +3= 5 queued
I151: 5-1 = 4 queued
I152: 4-1 +3= 6 queued
I153: 6-1 +3= 8 queued
I154: 8-1 = 7 queued
I155: 7-1 = 6 queued
I156: 6-1 +3= 8 queued
I157: 8-1 = 7 queued
I158: 7-1 = 6 queued
I159: 6-1 = 5 queued
I160: 5-1 +3= 7 queued
I162: 7-1 = 6 queued
I163: 6-1 = 5 queued
I164: 5-1 = 4 queued
I165: 4-1 = 3 queued
I166: 3-1 = 2 queued
I167: 2-1 = 1 queued
I168: Fades

Nope doesnt work but its kinda close

 

• Disquette

I've uploaded the full log. You'll have to strip out a bunch of stuff probably, I know it made it easier for me. Also, the way I figured offhand/mainhand was by the amount of damage the swing did, and for my misses, I went through one by one and looked at the surrounding attacks to determine which was which.

Attached Files

FlurryInfo.txt (34.6 KB, 115 views)

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

Timmervargen

It's something that interests me as well. I've got my new pet project back in the other thread, but if you need data I could be up for providing some samples, seeing that I spend time with the Servants already. If so, any special parameters you want on it, or just plain unbuffed weapons of varying speeds on auto attack? I'm due for a respec soon either way, shifting a few points around. I could gather samples with 1-5 points in Flurry for comparative purposes if that would be useful.

As for what causes this behaviour from Flurry, I'm rather stumped at the moment. Will mull if over and pray for a moment of clarity.

 

• Disquette

Probably an automated system for timestamping Offhand and Mainhand hits in an easy-to-parse format would be the biggest help.

Actually, if you have any un-enchanted tests (no stormstrike, no windfury), and can provide the same sort of combat log with different speed weapons than i had (2.6 and 2.8), that'd be helpful probably.

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

slant

Here's my theory.

- Flurry does not stack on itself.
- However, it does work independently on each hand, just like crusader, so you can have 6 total charges. Like crusader, that isn't visible in the buff icon.
- If an attack procs flurry, it doesn't consume a charge.

Row numbers in my spreadsheet match yours.



Thoughts? It does seem to fit your results.

 

• Disquette

The part that I don't see working with that theory is that when you have a single proc, you don't get just that hand sped up (I think). For instance, in that same combat log, check this part out from the very first flurry in the combat log:

(after that there are a bunch of regular hits with "normal" weapon delay)

In this example, Flurry is clearly evident on both hands (and wow @ that 1.25 delay main hand swing), even though only the off hand crit proc'd it.

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

slant

Well it would still haste both hands as expected, flurry is an aura, but the buff itself can be applied independently, like crusader.

You may have parried before that 1.25s swing, too.

 

◊ Vulajin

Well, let's start with what we know about Flurry:

- The length of time a weapon swing will take is determined after the previous swing with that weapon.
- When you crit, you gain a buff with three charges.
- When you swing while Flurry is active, the time-to-next-swing is only 70% of the normal length.

Looking at the upper yellow region in your screenshot, let's see what's going on. First of all, you MH crit at 542.656 and proc three fresh Flurry charges. At the same time, you were already in Flurry, so your next MH swing gets the haste, and your ongoing OH swing was already hasted.

Now, your OH hits at 544.187. Because Flurry is up, your next OH swing gets hasted. You should have 2 charges of Flurry left.

Your MH hits at 544.671. Flurry is up, so your next MH swing gets hasted. You should have 1 charge of Flurry left.

Your OH hits again at 546.312. Flurry is up, so your next OH swing is again hasted. You should be out of Flurry charges.

Here's where weird stuff happens. Your MH hits again at 546.875 and gets hasted. Now you're at -1 Flurry charges. O.o

Your OH hits at 548.5. Its next swing is not hasted (as you can see the next OH swing comes with a 2.625 delay at 551.125).

Your MH hits at 548.718. Its next swing is not hasted (as you can see the next MH swing comes with a 2.594 delay at 551.312).

Finally, at 549.296, over two seconds after the last hasted hit (and three seconds after it should have been used up), Flurry wears off.

Now, my potential explanation for this is that Flurry doesn't wear off until the last Flurry-effected swing connects. However, it also seems to be affecting one more hit than it should. The "extra" hasted swing (by the MH at 546.875) doesn't seem to come soon enough after the third hasted swing to be able to be considered a lag effect. In addition, it's not likely that the first hasted swing incorrectly used a leftover charge of Flurry from before the 542.656 MH crit, because the first swing after that crit was over a second and a half later, plenty of time for the new Flurry effect to replace the old.

 

Pater

Not sure if it helps, but a few weeks ago for my sim, I verified that the first swing after a flurry is proc'd by a special consumes the first charge. (Nothing in my offhand, so no OH swings.)

Something like this:
0.00 MH swing (flurry count = 0)
1.00 SS crit (flurry count = 3)
2.00 MH swing (flurry count = 2)

Now, I never felt like I had enough precision in the time stamps to see whether flurry haste was prorated across the full delay, or if part of the flurry period is just wasted, or what. But I definitely verified that the first swing consumes 1 charge, even if it's only very shortly after the SS crit.

 

◊ Lactose

What I'm getting:

• Flurry is attached per weapon (off-hand vs main hand), lasting for 3 swings on said weapon.
• While Flurry is active (on either off-hand, main hand or both), both weapons get hasted.
• A crit reset its weapon's duration to 3 swings.
• When no weapon has a Flurry attached to it, the Flurry effect fades.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

slant

No. If you proc flurry mainhand, offhand attacks definitely consume charges.

I still think my theory stands up.

 

• Disquette

Very nice explanation and walkthrough of the combat process, thank you. I think it fits with what Pater wrote as well.

I'll have more of the excel file (well, screenshots and the whole .xls) for viewing tomorrow.

I wonder if it's as simple as saying "flurry grants you 4 charges instead of 3", and that the rest of the confusing aspect came from me not interpreting the data correctly. Ah well, on to the g/f's house, I'll resume thoughts on this tomorrow :p

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

• Disquette

Well aren't you a smart cookie!

thanks - sometimes i miss the rather obvious in my attempts to cut down on the noise in the combat log ;-)

----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

 

◊ Xerophyte

The 3 charges per hand theory doesn't appear to hold water either. From the provided log.

4 swings in Flurry, 2 with each hand, all noticeably hasted. In this case the result is pretty consistent with Flurry lasting 3 autoswings; the buff was in fact queued for faiding after the OH hit at 43.437 and the last MH hit just got to tag along for the ride.

My best guess is that what you're looking at is the Flurry "stack" being both slow to renew to 3 after a crit mid-Flurry and slow to fade when it's supposed to. If you crit while at 1 charge remaining then the game takes a second of thinking time before getting you back up to 3 charges, so you get a free extension of your old Flurry. As a Flurry is expended the game takes a second of thinking time to actually fade it, giving another free extension. The two effects combine to make the tail end of any Flurry streak considerably longer than it has a right to.

A good way to discount the above possibility is find an isolated Flurry that lasts for 5-6 hits.

 

◊ Lactose

Indeed slant, I forgot about the fact that off-hand consumes main hand procs (and vice versa). In my defense, it was about 3 AM when I wrote it :P
The thing about Flurry sometimes lasting a swing too much though, l think can be credited to delay in applying / removing the Flurry buff.
For example, you can see instanced when the Flurry gain is almost a full second after a crit, and an "extra" flurried hit being ~0.3 seconds after when Flurry should have disappeared.
At the very least, I don't think this delay should be neglected.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Universal

This is something I haven't heard o