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Old 10/10/07, 6:41 PM   #251 (permalink)
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Bonechewer
Question about Hydross-type bosses:

Can they crush? I do believe they can crit (at least the adds have crit me before).
 
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Old 10/10/07, 7:20 PM   #252 (permalink)
Want to goto Prom?
 
stabbymcgee's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Crushridge
If I remember correctly, as of a few patches ago they removed the ability of Hydross doing crushings.

[16:26:07] <falk|hiding> there needs to be a way to buy WSG rep though
[16:26:21] <falk|hiding> atm it's like stabbing my penis with a rusty knife

Originally Posted by Praetorian
Hrm, yep, I'm entirely wrong.
 
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Old 10/11/07, 7:54 AM   #253 (permalink)
Great Tiger
 
Illundai's Avatar
 
Human Death Knight
 
Silvermoon (EU)
That's correct, was hotfixed sometime before 2.1. Hydross can crit, but he cannot crush.
 
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Old 10/11/07, 11:08 AM   #254 (permalink)
Setting a bad example
 
Nite_Moogle's Avatar
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Thanks, I've added that information.

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Old 10/12/07, 4:24 PM   #255 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Smolderthorn
I'd like to suggest you update the hunter ranged miss info to 9% based on:

[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion

instead of the older number. You link this post on the 1H/Shield/2H etc comments, but the post is actually about ranged attacks specifically. May want to move the link down to the ranged section.

Also, scorpid poison scaling with spell damage for hunters was nerfed in in 2.2 and no longer has the massive advantages it used to. The days of scorpid pet dominance seem to be at an end. You may want to remove the mention of scorpids.

Thanks for maintaining the summary page!
 
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Old 10/13/07, 11:09 PM   #256 (permalink)
Bald Bull
 
PSGarak's Avatar
 
Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
As is probably obvious, theorycraft needs to be update to reflect Expertise. Quick rundown on what's been discussed so far, see relevant for details:
Rating -> expertise at the same ratio rating -> weapon skill previously, expertise -> reduction at 1/4% dodge/parry reduction per point, we're sitting on a 1k data set from a friendly druid that seems to indicate it's working properly on parries (unlike weapon skill?) and that yes, they do get turned into hits, not misses.
Melee dps classes that are not 41 combat rogues need 23 (we assume) expertise rating to cap on bosses. Point-for-point (from the back) it's about as good as hit rating. It's twice as good as hit for tank threat generation, and even better for pushing parry-gibs off the table.

Floor values for dodge/parry vs expertise are not known to exist, the 23 value still needs empirical testing.
 
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Old 10/14/07, 4:29 PM   #257 (permalink)
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Skywall
Has any testing been done with the new Devastate regarding it's new threat numbers?
 
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Old 10/15/07, 10:44 AM   #258 (permalink)
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Nite_Moogle's Avatar
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Let's not put the cart before the horse here guys. This is intended to be information for the live servers, not things that are more than likely over a month off yet.

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Old 10/15/07, 4:31 PM   #259 (permalink)
Banned
 
Troll Mage
 
Trollbane
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle View Post
Let's not put the cart before the horse here guys. This is intended to be information for the live servers, not things that are more than likely over a month off yet.
The discussion is still something more worth mulling over, though. With major changes like the 5SR combat regen talents getting doubled, the devestate change, ret pally viability, etc. it's still worth considering the info as current. As with any math affected by a patch, the OP can always be edited to account for new changes.

Choosing how to gear your class/spec could be affected by the 2.3 changes and it would be a shame to leave people misinformed about the benefit of choosing this piece in 2.2 but this piece in 2.3 instead.
 
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Old 10/15/07, 4:36 PM   #260 (permalink)
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Nite_Moogle's Avatar
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Benegesserit View Post
The discussion is still something more worth mulling over, though. With major changes like the 5SR combat regen talents getting doubled, the devestate change, ret pally viability, etc. it's still worth considering the info as current. As with any math affected by a patch, the OP can always be edited to account for new changes.

Choosing how to gear your class/spec could be affected by the 2.3 changes and it would be a shame to leave people misinformed about the benefit of choosing this piece in 2.2 but this piece in 2.3 instead.
That's what other threads are for. If people aren't aware enough to realize that there's a test realm up and things are changing, they aren't reading this thread. By the time 2.3 goes live there will be lots of new updates to put in, but telling somebody that something on test sucks right now when Blizzard has flat out said that 2.3 will be up for at least a month is not something I'm going to do when there's so much time to change it. Already we've seen Weapon Mastery for warriors go from a craptacular skill to an outstanding one. There is way too much change left to call things as gospel this early.

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Old 10/16/07, 12:18 AM   #261 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Smolderthorn
WFIW, my suggested changed were related to the live 2.2 version.
 
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Old 10/20/07, 10:39 AM   #262 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Tuatha's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Uther
In the OP under the Melee section you state:
"- The formula for determining hasted weapon speed is:
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/15.76)))"

The parenthesis are unbalanced in this formula (8 open, 9 close). It should look like:

Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / (((1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/15.76)))
 
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Old 10/20/07, 12:28 PM   #263 (permalink)
Don Lactose
 
Lactose's Avatar
 
Tauren Hunter
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by Tuatha View Post
In the OP under the Melee section you state:
"- The formula for determining hasted weapon speed is:
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/15.76)))"

The parenthesis are unbalanced in this formula (8 open, 9 close). It should look like:

Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / (((1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/15.76)))
Not quite. This is how it should be, with colors added and parenthesis bolded to show better:

Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ((1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+(Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/15.76)))

Last edited by Lactose : 10/20/07 at 12:34 PM. Reason: Color change!

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max
 
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Old 10/20/07, 12:50 PM   #264 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Tuatha's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Uther
Same thing. A*(B*C)=(A*B)*C
Still, more consistent placement of the parenthesis ftw. Use Lactose's, if you would.
 
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Old 10/20/07, 1:56 PM   #265 (permalink)
Chief Passenger
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Earthen Ring (EU)
Any reason why it's put as (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/15.76)) when you could eliminate a set of brackets and put (1+((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/1576))
 
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Old 10/21/07, 11:00 AM   #266 (permalink)
Von Kaiser
 
Human Warrior
 
Argent Dawn
I realize that this is not live yet, but what will the amount of expertise to reduce a 73's dodge/parry to zilch be?
 
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Old 10/21/07, 11:21 AM   #267 (permalink)
F12
 
Vulajin's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Margot View Post
I realize that this is not live yet, but what will the amount of expertise to reduce a 73's dodge/parry to zilch be?
It is not known exactly. Best estimate we have so far for reducing dodge chance to 0% is 26 (103 rating). Parry chance of raid bosses is much higher, you're not likely to be able to reduce that to 0% any time soon.
 
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Old 10/22/07, 12:04 PM   #268 (permalink)
Piston Honda
 
Dwarf Warrior
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
It is not known exactly. Best estimate we have so far for reducing dodge chance to 0% is 26 (103 rating). Parry chance of raid bosses is much higher, you're not likely to be able to reduce that to 0% any time soon.
I would have thought 22.4 Expertise assuming Bosses have 5.6% Dodge.
Approximately double this for Parry as it seems 11.2% could be a reasonable estimate for the Parry rate for many Bosses (many reports of them having 10-15% Parry).

But then we thought the Miss chance was 8.6% and it turned out to be a flat 9%...
 
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Old 10/23/07, 5:12 PM   #269 (permalink)
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Icecrown
My best guess is 6.5% dodge for bosses and 13% for parry. This is based on the discovery that bosses with channeled casting do not seem to dodge or parry during the cast. Thus, WWS reports will be generally understating the result. I've seen quite a few with dodge rates around 6% and parry rates around 12% and if you round those up a bit, you get the above.
 
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Old 10/27/07, 11:35 PM   #270 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Frostwolf
I haven't finished all the math on this yet, but so far I have gotten some pretty good info.

If you raid with 3 or more rogues/fury wars, and also utilize multiple hunters, it is worth it to have the rogues respec to 2/2 blade twisting. If a target is dazed 100% of the time, every hunter in the raid will gain about a 5-6% (I'm still working on the math for more exact numbers) overall damage boost. This also helps warriors with heroic strike, but to a lesser extent.

When I get more data and finish all my numbers I will post with more exact numbers, but so far (working with only 2 nights of data) I'm getting a picture of a pretty good dps boost for all hunters, while a very very small sacrifice for rogues.
 
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Old 10/28/07, 12:09 AM   #271 (permalink)
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Problem is that most targets that matter are actaully immune to daze afaik.
 
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Old 10/29/07, 8:50 PM   #272 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Orc Rogue
 
Frostwolf
Originally Posted by galzohar View Post
Problem is that most targets that matter are actaully immune to daze afaik.
Oh wow, I read the Daze mechanics and bosses thread wrong. I was going off drysc's post that i got from bluetracker about blade twisting giving rogues enhanced raid viability, and a 3 a.m. reading of the Daze mechanics and bosses thread.
 
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Old 10/29/07, 9:45 PM   #273 (permalink)
Bald Bull
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Al'Akir (EU)
At first I thought you were flaming me, so I searched for the thread and found out you really did mean you read it wrong
 
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Old 11/13/07, 12:42 PM   #274 (permalink)
Glass Joe
 
Troll Rogue
 
Andorhal
Can this treat please be updated to reflect 2.3 changes.. thank you
 
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Old 11/13/07, 12:43 PM   #275 (permalink)
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Nite_Moogle's Avatar
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
When I get some time, this thread is going to get shitcanned and I'll repost with the 2.3 changes so the title is updated correctly. There are a couple of things I am waiting to see on live servers (mostly regarding expertise) but the majority of the thread should still be accurate.

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