Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.1 - Page 2

♦ Lorewanderer · 06/09/07, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

On the subject of temporary tanking buffs: Druids in bear form benefit from the full bonus of inspiration; enchants and devo aura/etc don't. I gain ~5k armour from inspiration with ~31k raid buffed. Will try and get a screenshot for proof!

Probably best to just say druids only benefit from % based armor buffs. Inspiration, Anc. Fortitude, Imp LoH, and some others I'm sure I've forgotten. All multipliers rather than flat number additions though.

slant · 06/09/07, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

Considering there are multiple reports from classes that tested spell hate (including one just in of Gor Alt Tabbed In To WoW and Used Bloodlust and Spammed LHW and Got No Spell Not Ready Messages) and Slant's link doesn't actually show anything regarding testing I will leave this in.

That's interesting. The tests I saw had a mage spamming scorch in the exact same situation and he did get spell not ready messages. I didn't change that bloodlust entry lightly, it took a lot of testing by various people in the FAQ thread. Maybe the GCD is only reduced for the shaman, and not the group?

And other stuff:

Mongoose/crusader/potency aren't equal, even for ap=str*2 classes. In fact, theorycraft shows fiery roughly equivalent to potency, crusader slightly better than both, and mongoose winning overall.

Doesn't combat swords beat daggers now that they changed the proc to not reset the swing timer?

Arnath · 06/09/07, 3:20 PM

The warlock spreadsheet can be found here.

Originally Posted by Kralnor

I'm not 100% convinced that this is a fact.

Assuming 1000 Shadow damage, Shadow Mastery, Contagion, Improved CoA -

Curse of Doom: 1.1(4200 + 2(1000)) = 380 mana for 6820 after 60 seconds, or 113.66 dps and 17.95 dpm.
Curse of Agony: 1.3(1356 + 1.4(1000)) = 265 mana for 3582.8 over 24 seconds, or 149.28 dps and 13.52 dpm.

Curse of Agony also scales faster than Curse of doom.

Curse of Doom 1.1(4200 + 2(3000)) = 11220 after 60 seconds, or 187 dps and 29.53 dpm.
Curse of Agony 1.3(1356 + 1.4(3000)) = 7222.8 over 24 seconds, or 300.95 dps and 27.25 dpm.

In a long term DPS sense, damage per cast time is generally more important than straight up DPS or DPM. If you consider that CoD gives you almost 7k damage for just 1 global cooldown whereas Agony would take two to do the same, this tends to addup in the long run. The GCDs you're wasting by using CoA tip the scales in favor of CoD.

Nite_Moogle · 06/09/07, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by slant

That's interesting. The tests I saw had a mage spamming scorch in the exact same situation and he did get spell not ready messages. I didn't change that bloodlust entry lightly, it took a lot of testing by various people in the FAQ thread. Maybe the GCD is only reduced for the shaman, and not the group?

6/9 14:59:26.419 Foofu gains Bloodlust.
6/9 14:59:26.419 Foofu 's Flash of Light heals you for 976.
6/9 14:59:27.752 Foofu 's Flash of Light heals you for 972.
6/9 14:59:29.385 Foofu 's Flash of Light critically heals you for 1469.
6/9 14:59:31.245 Foofu 's Flash of Light heals you for 987.
6/9 14:59:32.855 Foofu 's Flash of Light heals you for 996.
6/9 14:59:34.635 Foofu 's Flash of Light heals you for 961.
6/9 14:59:36.110 Foofu 's Flash of Light critically heals you for 1473.
6/9 14:59:37.750 Foofu 's Flash of Light heals you for 989.

6/9 14:59:26.197 You gain Bloodlust.
6/9 14:59:29.025 Your Lesser Healing Wave heals you for 614.
6/9 14:59:30.627 Your Lesser Healing Wave heals you for 604.
6/9 14:59:32.461 Your Lesser Healing Wave heals you for 613.
6/9 14:59:34.084 Your Lesser Healing Wave heals you for 639.
6/9 14:59:35.557 Your Lesser Healing Wave heals you for 637.
6/9 14:59:37.381 Your Lesser Healing Wave heals you for 634.
6/9 14:59:39.071 Your Lesser Healing Wave heals you for 617.

Without Bloodlust, the heals were spaced further apart (closer to 2 seconds instead of 1.6ish). This is without the benefit of /stopcasting for either of us, so even the handful of results out of this sample that do come in under 1.5 seconds should be enough to verify that Bloodlust does indeed lower the global cooldown, and it should be easily repeatable for anyone else who wishes to try. Just plot the time intervals between heals when spamming LHW/FoL/FH inside of Bloodlust then out of Bloodlust and I think you'll see data that supports that BL does in fact lower the GCD.

Doesn't combat swords beat daggers now that they changed the proc to not reset the swing timer?

They also made it so the procs are white damage and thus not immune to glancing blows, so this isn't as good as it appears at first blush.

slant · 06/09/07, 4:48 PM

Well, the tests were done back in 2.0, maybe they changed it. I'll change my FAQ as well to reflect this, your results are pretty definitive.

Yes, so 25% of 5% of your damage does 70% damage and can't crit. But sword spec still does mainhand damage, can proc poisons/wf/etc and so on. I'm not 100% up to date on rogue theorycraft like I am with shamans, so I tend to trust those guys.

sylveni · 06/09/07, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by Kralnor

I'm not 100% convinced that this is a fact.

Assuming 1000 Shadow damage, Shadow Mastery, Contagion, Improved CoA -

Curse of Doom: 1.1(4200 + 2(1000)) = 380 mana for 6820 after 60 seconds, or 113.66 dps and 17.95 dpm.
Curse of Agony: 1.3(1356 + 1.4(1000)) = 265 mana for 3582.8 over 24 seconds, or 149.28 dps and 13.52 dpm.

Hm, I thought that shadow mastery did not affect curse of doom. I don't have the talent to test myself, can anyone confirm/deny that?

Some comments about your curse of agony formula. Should be something like 1.1*1.1*1.05 instead of 1.3, and the spell coefficient was changed previously in a patch from 1.4 to 1.18.

This changes would give 103 dps for cod, and 132 dps for coa.

An extra point to mention is that cod requires 1 gcd every 60 seconds compared to coa's 2.5 gcds. In theory you could (~almost) cast a shadowbolt in that time. If we factor that into the comparison, for a deep affliction warlock (and assuming 2.5 second bane shadowbolt), say with 10% crit, an average shadowbolt would do

1.05 * 1.10 * (572 + 0.856*1000) = 1649 dmg

This would bring cod to

(4200 + 2*1000) + 1649 = 130 dps

For reference, here are the numbers for 1200, 1300, 1400 shadow dmg. Most warlocks are probably past 1000 shadow dmg by now, so it's useful to look at these ranges as well:

1200 shadow dmg:

cod + 1 sb : 141 dps
coa : 144 dps

1300 shadow dmg:

cod + 1 sb : 146 dps
coa : 150 dps

1400 shadow dmg:

cod + 1 sb : 151 dps
coa : 156 dps

It's still as you say, curse of agony is better than curse of doom. The difference is very small though. I would rather use cod for practical reasons of getting in an extra shadowbolt for (hopeful) imp. sb proc, or maintaining tighter rotation on the rest of my dots.

Lactose · 06/09/07, 5:42 PM

Wouldn't such discussion (Warlock stuff mostly) be better suited in the appropriate class threads? With just the conclusions here, I mean...

Stein · 06/10/07, 4:32 AM

I think a comment about /stopcasting macros and lag estimating cast bars would be a nice addition.

also, +dam nearly as good as +hit for 10/48/3 mages; since some boss adds aren't lvl 73, +dam is seen as perferable (for example, runed living ruby's +9 dam is seen as superior to veiled noble topaz's +4 hit & +5 dam).

galzohar · 06/10/07, 4:46 PM

I find /stopcasting macros extremely crucial for anyone who cares even a tiny bit about dps/hps. It makes a huge difference and makes the effects of lag pretty much neglicible after you master its use. Lowest ping I ever get is 300, but I did a "spam flash heal on ourselves" competition and my spells were clearly faster with a few people I tested it out with. Also in a instance run I got lucky to start casting a fireball at the exact same time as the other mage, and both of us casted the next few fireballs at the exact same time, which means either we both were losing exactly the same casting time, or were both using the /stopcasting macro with near-prefection. I find the latter to be more likely.

Hiyono · 06/11/07, 8:37 AM

Originally Posted by Chicken

Just adding to this a bit:

In general any spell will interrupt your swing timer, with Shamans and Paladins being able to cast instant cast spells without interrupting their swing timer. You could also view the instant abilities of Rogues, Warriors, Cat Druids and Bear Druids to fall under the 'does not interrupt your swing timer' rule.

I'm not entirely sure about Hunter melee abilities, but there is the well known effect on their instant shots delaying an auto-shot if cast in 0.5 second window before an auto-shot would fire. Steady Shot is also pretty much the sole exception, being a 'spell' with cast time which does not reset your 'swing' timer.

If a warrior is silenced, he cannot use shouts or thunderclap. Do these fall under "instant abilities" or spells?

Silmeria · 06/11/07, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Bibdy

Probably worth mentioning that Incinerate > Shadowbolt a lot of the time, also. Predominantly because its a 3s cast lowered to a 2.5s cast through Bane. The only time it ought to do more damage (unless you somehow stack the living shit out of fire damage) is with a 0/21/40 spec with a sacced Imp.

Not to nitpick, but I think you mean Shadowbolt > Incinerate. Just clarifying cause I got at least one warlock buddy who went "Whoa!" at me when he read this (if only he had read the entire thing...)

Bogeywoman · 06/11/07, 12:44 PM

Warlocks
...
- Imp Life Tap is still a necessary talent even if you have Dark Pact (hint, your imp doesn't have infinite mana).

Your imp has close enough to infinite mana, when Spirit and Int buffed, that the few extra mana you get from Imp Life Tap when you do find yourself having to use it are pretty inconsequential. For raiding builds, try 2/2 Soul Siphon for emergency healing and grinding help, 2/2 Imp Drain Soul for the threat reduction, and, if not hit capped, dump spare points into Suppression until you are. Even though it's affliction only, if you have dark pact, you're a heavy affliction build.

Anduryondon · 06/11/07, 2:48 PM

Is there any Reason why a shaman cant drop windfury AND grace of air or another air totem with cycling his totems every 10 seconds, besides the wcds?

Nite_Moogle · 06/11/07, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by Anduryondon

Is there any Reason why a shaman cant drop windfury AND grace of air or another air totem with cycling his totems every 10 seconds, besides the wcds?

Mana issues. 700 mana per 10 seconds is not a trivial amount. There is absolutely no way that this is more useful than spending mana on damage or heals during that amount of time.

Anduryondon · 06/11/07, 4:01 PM

But basically, if you have enough mana for the given amount of time it would be the best choice, am i right?