dedmonwakeen

I haven't seen a reference to the Incinerate bonus when Immolate is up.

Does this bonus change the base damage value in which case all talents and debuffs affect it?

Just debuffs?

Or is it a flat adder?

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

• frmorrison

With Immo up, the base damage of Incinerate should be increased.


On another note, perhaps adding Warlock curses to the list would be a benefit, i.e. if there are 3 or more people that will benefit from CoE/CoS/CoR, you should use them over other curse.

 

tedv

That depends on gear and talents (Malediction in particular) as much as numbers. It's still a good rule of thumb though: with 3 people you almost always want shadows or elements up. With 2 people geared similarly to the warlock in question, a curse of elements/shadows is usually a minor benefit (primarily because the warlock has extra global cooldowns for shadow bolt).

 

galzohar

Is CoA/CoD really anywhere near 10% of your DPS to be even worth considering though?

 

Nite_Moogle

Yes. There's no reason to post this when you can find the base damage and coefficient on CoA and CoD pretty easily and extrapolate what it's actually worth versus a 10% improvement of your own damage.

 

Sven

The information from the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond – melee only? thread (much of it thanks to Roywyn, along with the damage testers) might be of some use. Here's a sum-up for:

100% + {(150%*1.03) - 100%} * (100% + TDI) = Crit Damage
Where

100% is the normal damage

{(150%*1.03) - 100%} is the crit damage with the relentless earthstorm diamond (would normally be 150% - 100% or simply 50%). This would be {(200% * 1.03) - 100%) for melee damage.

(100% + TDI) is the total damage increased from talents, with TDI as the percent increase from talents (100% for ele shammies using Elemental Fury, Locks using Ruin, Moonkin using Vengeance; 50% for arcane mages using spell power; 30% for rogues using lethality; etc)

For simplicity's sake, here's a list of crit damage increase from the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond:

(Note that Ignite is not a crit modifier – it just multiplies the total damage done by 1.4. Ignite is also included in the final crit damage %)


Moonkin: 209% - 200% = 9%
Feral Druid: 216.6% - 210% = 6.6%

Marksmanship Hunter: 237.8% - 230% = 7.8%

Arcane Mage: 181.75% - 175% = 6.75%
Arcane/Frost Mage: 236.25% -225% = 11.25%
Fire Mage: 216.3% - 210% = 6.3%
Arcane/Fire mage: 254.45% - 245% = 9.45%

Lethality Rogue: 237.8% - 230% = 7.8%

Elemental Shaman: 209% - 200% = 9%

Ruin Warlock: 209% - 200% = 9%

Arms Warrior: 220% - 227.2% = 7.2%


As you can see, Arcane/Frost mages get the most benefit from this gem, whereas pure Fire mages get the least out of it. It is, however, at least double, if not triple, as powerful as the tooltip would lead you to believe.

 

darkInertia

Question: Does this mean that the tier 5 set bonus that gives an instant heal will reset the swing timer?

 

Nite_Moogle

That may be an exception to the rule, but someone with the right gear will have to test it.

 

Charsi

Maybe this is redundant, but a section on warrior DPS similar to the rogue section? Is the hit cap the same, what sort of a speed OH is desirable, etc? If it's all the same as rogue stuff.. perhaps simply note that.

 

◊ Sarutobi

The hit cap is the same assuming the warrior has 2 weapons equipped. And like rogues, each point in precision lowers the cap by 15.77.

 

Ikuturso

Yes--here's an excerpt from a combat log of mine with 2.6/2.4 weapons (the tier 5 proc effect is called "Invigorated"):

6/4 18:37:09.706 You crit Servant of Allistarj for 771.
6/4 18:37:09.927 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 182.
6/4 18:37:10.107 Servant of Allistarj crits you for 112.
6/4 18:37:10.297 You gain Invigorated.
6/4 18:37:10.297 You gain Flurry.
6/4 18:37:11.689 Your Lesser Healing Wave heals you for 1073.
6/4 18:37:11.929 Invigorated fades from you.
6/4 18:37:12.090 Servant of Allistarj misses you.
6/4 18:37:13.522 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 210.
6/4 18:37:13.712 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 378.

 

Machinator

It was mentioned above that it should be greater than 102.4% to push crushing off, but the main post isn't edited if that person is still keeping it updated.

On a similar note, is there a proof that I can show people that its dodge+parry+block+miss > 25% plus shield block to avoid crushings, or is that still disputed in some way? All I can find is anecdotal stuff.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Grayson Carlyle

Ironically, you answered your own question.

Block % granted from shield block is 75%. You need 102.4% from block, parry, be-missed and dodge to not get crushed. Take out 75% from that equation and you get: You need 27.4% base from block, parry, be-missed and dodge to not get crushed

 

Machinator

Well thats how I think it works, but Im more looking for something that proves it. Every thread I find on the topic has people saying that you need 25% block. It seems all the evidence for 25% is anecdotal but Im looking for proof its wrong for a debate with people.

"Information is ammunition."

 

galzohar

I also read a possibility on wowwiki saying misses are on a different roll than the crush/hit/crit/dodge/parry/block roll or something like that. It's definitely a topic worth testing.

 

• Chicken

It's very simple. A well-geared Paladin can push off crushing blows. Holy Shield is 35% block for most well-geared Paladins. No Paladin I ever heard of has managed to achieve 65% block.

Conclusion? You don't need 100% total block to push off Crushing Blows. Instead, you need enough of a combination of miss/block/parry/dodge.

I'll just link Theras's recent WWS with him tanking Prince Malchezaar, Fathom-Lord Karathress and Gruul, you'll note that despite the fact that he doesn't have 65% block, he still gets a very low amount of crushing blows. He does get some of them, but less than the 15% we'd expect if you needed 100% block.

Prince Malchezaar: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...1387-11697&a=7
Fathom-Lord Karathress: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...973-15489&a=15
Gruul: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...9606-9991&a=30

The only other possibility could be that the mechanics are different for Warriors, but we'd really be grasping for straws at that point.

 

galzohar

I would bet that the peope say you need 25% block to put crushes off the table simply aren't aware of the table based system. If you'd think it rolls for dodge then parry then block then crush you would think 100% block would be what makes you never get to the crush roll in the firstplace.
Of course we all know that's not true, which means unless you see someone RELIABLE saying you need 25% block (100% with shield block), continuing this discussion is totally pointless.

 

Grayson Carlyle

That does prove it. There is no simpler proof. If you don't believe the roll table system which has been proved over and over again, and then you can't take simple math from it and figure out a simple result, then there is no helping you. If you can't see that what I posted is proof in itself, then you're lost for good.

 

• Maels

I really think you should remove this.
Just read the sentence: "As long as it can run full duration, for sustained single target dps, opportunity cost of re-casting CoA" whilst the predominant message is CoD > CoA.

3 locks and 2 spriests can and will push off CoD.
A large number of bosses have more than 1 target.
Coa is more dps regardless of opportunity cost.
If you have improved CoA then you should never CoD.

There are times when CoD should be used over CoA, but they are too situational to be worth mentioning. Simply put, CoA is a better choice most of the time.

I just don't want to see warlocks start using CoD and claiming it's better dps because they read CoD > CoA in an EJ thread.

 

tetracycloide

3 locks and 2 shadow priests are boasting, at best, 25 debuffs so they would not be pushing CoD off by themselves. Furthermore, if your curse is getting pushed off then that's as big a negative for CoA as it is for CoD when you consider CoA must tick for quite a while before you start to see big ticks.

CoA is more DPS but this is also irrelevent, if we only used the highest DPS skills in the rotation as locks we'd do nothing but spam shadowbolts all day. The only reason you use DoTs at all is because you get better DPCT out of them than from SB and CoD is considerably better DPCT than CoA. The DPS isn't even relevant, to beat CoD 2.1xCoA would have to deal CoD damage + 1.71 secs worth of SB damage for the extra GCDs you could have spent spamming. The required +shadow for CoA to beat out CoD is somewhere north of 1400 in an affliction spec with imp CoA.

The only time you should ever use CoA over CoD is when you're fighting something that will be alive between 30 and 60 secs or if you have more than 1400 +shadow. Most trash dies in under 30 secs and pretty much all bosses die in over 60 secs. So, in fact, the times when you would actually use CoA over CoD in a raid setting are so situational they're pretty much not worth mentioning.

In short, the gross DPS is irrelevent. Only the net DPS matters and therefor opportunity cost is highly relevent.

My vanity is justified.

 

Opioid

In this vein, could you edit the original post with a list per class or spec with the "right" meta-gem to use? It seems to reoccur a lot and it would be nice to just have it set somewhere.

 

◊ Lactose

I thought items with Haste Ratings were multiplicative as well, instead of additive?

2 hypothetical items, both with 10.52 Haste Rating on them, 2.0 sec unhasted Hasted Speed:

Additive: 2.0 / (1+((10.52+10.52)/100/10.52)))

[top] 2.0 / 1.02

1.96078
Multiplicative: 2.0 / ((1+((10.52)/100/10.52)) * (1+((10.52)/100/10.52)))

[top] 2.0 / (1.01 * 1.01)

1.96059

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

martin0641

I was comparing the new Vet boots with the weighted values and it seems one pair is worth 62 points and the other 64. I was aiming at 50% raid crit with 1900-2200 atk power between trinkets. I figured the massive amount of crits would outpace the seemingly small amount of damage gains from attack power, especially from WF damage. Especially when I gain so much attack from trinkets and buffs, I thought the crit itself during the 15-20 second trinket periods would be a really big boost. Is 28 attack power really worth .5 crit chance?

 

• Chicken

That's something which I'd relegate to being 'Unsure' for now, it'd definitely require actual testing to try out though, since it's one of those things in which the character screen lying is quite likely. As far as I know the character screen does use Haste Rating additively, but as I said, that doesn't really say much.

This would probably be most easily tested by combining a Dragonspine Trophy and the Abacus of Violent Odds with the slowest weapon you can get your hands on, since it'd make the results most obvious. There's white quality weapons of 3.8 speed, so as example of the difference:

Additive: 3.8 / (1+((325+260)/100/10.52))

[top] 3.8 / 1.56

2.44
Multiplicative: 3.8 / ((1+((325)/100/10.52)) * (1+((260)/100/10.52)))

[top] 3.8 / (1.31 * 1.24)

2.34

 

Nite_Moogle

This isn't the "pimp my character" thread. Please post this in the relevant class itemization/discussion thread.