Hey guys i have a simple question that's been bugging me for awhile, and after a huge arguement with my guild last night i figured id ask you guys.
Plain and simple, if a fury warrior and combat rogue, that are completely and evenly geared (lets say Tier 5 and its equivalent gear up to SSC and the Eye) and each player is a master of their class, no difference in playing skill or anything, and they are completely unmolested by worrying about threat, which one will come in first in a dps race during a raid?
I ask this because my guild says a dps warrior is a waste of space, but everyone else on the server ALWAYS takes one to kara. they say dps warriors dont bring enough to a party to warrant a position, but they seem to not realise that many trash mobs and bosses require an extra tank(ie Moroes, Wizard of Oz/RnJ) and a warrior imho fills that role better than a feral druid.
Thanks and much apreciation in advance for intelligent posts.
pure dps: rogue >> fury > feral
Off-tanking: Fury comes no where near the tanking capabilities of a feral druid. That doesn't mean Fury can't OT fine it is alot less than a feral druid. Simple because the way feral talents work.
Having said that; bringing a fury warrior (even if it is only as dps roll) won't harm your raid. It just isn't min/max setup.
DPS warrior are great from what I've seen. For my guild our top rogue does out dps our top fury warrior but the margin is not huge. A fury warrior is great for an off tank in kara as most of what you will be OT will not terribly stress your tank healers. Battle shout or commanding shout depending on the fight is a very significant buff. If you intend to put together a melee dps group when you get to 25 man raids then a fury warrior should be a part of that so if you don't plan on playing catch up once you hit bigger raids then you need to take one to kara.
As a feral druid that has tanked everything in kara I don't really agree that dps warrior make a better tank then a feral but that doesn't mean that there is no place for dps warriors in kara.
Who wins the dpsrace depends partly on the fight, partly on the party and partly how you count. First, warriors are generally better in fights where melee takes damage as he can, to a point, convert damage taken to damage dealt. Second, warriors benefit much more from certain buffs - most notably Windfury - than rogues and vice versa. I suppose the expected effect is that the rogue does more damage on the meter, the warrior does more to increase raid damage if his inclusion provides Battle Shout to melee dps'ers that would otherwise not have it or another equivalent dps buff.
If your raid group is bringing two protection warriors to Kara then they're doing themselves a disservice, I'd say. Yes, occasional bosses and pulls do take two tanks. The majority of bosses and pulls do not, especially in the latter part, and a dpsing protection warrior is a liability rather than an asset. Provided you're bringing one protection tank already it's much better if the occasional tank slot be filled by a druid or dps warrior, who can contribute more efficiently in a different role when not tanking.
I think Blizzard said it quite clearly for 2.1.0 that they nerfed Flurry in an effort to put Fury Warriors behind Rogues in melee raid damage, because their internal testing showed Fury Warriors ahead.
Non-tanking Warriors have their place in the raid, if they're serious about gear and have a good head on their shoulders.
What is the most important thing to you? Won't you grant me the pleasure of taking it away.
Evenly geared, a rogue SHOULD beat any other melee class in a dps fight, though it would be close), but the people in your guild are pretty clueless if they can't see what benefits a non-protection warrior can bring to an instance. And in places like Kara, having more than 1 prot-specced tank is a mistake as long the dps warrior knows what to do and also has the tank gear to step in when needed (for instance, I run 495ish defense with almost 13k hp and 13k ac even though I give the full-time tanks first dibs on tanking gear).
But like most things in WoW, it's not always about what you can do best as a class, but the versatility that you bring to the table.
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I think that rogue dps should overcome a fury warrior's. Because rogues are the only class that has 0 versatility in raids. They dont buff or ss or hs or decurse or shout or res or conjure food or anything i didn't say. Therefore, they should top the damagemeters naturally because the only thing that they can do is damage dealing.
The real case, well , there are many many variables to include in order to make a comparison.
Tier 5 dps gear of warriors and tier 5 dps gear of rogues are not the same so i pretty much think that we cant make a comparison relying on that, even if we assume they both have same playing skills (like playing with 0% mistake) and even if we assume that threat is not a problem at all, and also lets say they never miss and so, still, it is just 2 classes with completely different mechanics. Rogue is pretty much easier to estimate, since there is energy bar instead of rage bar and we all know how much energy is to be generated and thus to be converted into damage if we assumed the best possible cycles anyway.
When it comes to warriors it will get complicated a lot. It will depend on if the mob does have any AoE effects and so that warr will have more rage to convert into damage and so. Warrior dps is unexpected and very much more variable from fight to fight.
Therefore, without even going into calculations and details, my opinion is a good playing rogue should generally be able to outdps most of the other classes, all of them actually. Because they cant bring anything else to a raid fight other than melee dps as i mentioned. But in reality, there is no way to prove that i think.
Last edited by Quorn : 06/11/07 at 9:13 AM.
Some times it's not about "Fury warriors are dead weight", sometimes it's about the fact that the guild has 3 warriors who show up more then 50% of the time, and losing one of your main Protection tanks is never desirable.
Eg. Our guild has zero shadow priests, ret/prot pallies, or enhancement shaman...because we can't spare the healers (even with heavy recruiting for a guild in SSC....WTB healers?). It's about what the guild needs, not what you WANT.
That said, I've run fury for a long time, all the way back through AQ40, BWL and even MC, and continue to run fury through KZ, Gruul and Mag/SSC today. Is it a wasted raid spot taking me? Absolutely not. But that's because i pour everything possible into my class and strive to do everything possible....a bad, hell, even an AVERAGE, dps warrior is a wasted raid spot IMO. And when we say DPS warrior, we generally don't mean a MS/deathwish spec (Unless you are 2h fury, with imp slam), you have to be 100% dedicated to raid DPS.
I can, and do, off-tank KZ (behind either one of our prot warriors or feral druid), but the ferals definately make better off-tanks in every situation.
Oh, and all things being equal....Rogue > Fury warrior.
In an all-out no threat static tank and spank fight, buffed, potted and correctly supported, I sincerely believe that a Fury Warrior should and could out-damage a similarly geared and skilled Rogue. We don't have the luxury of threat control like a Rogue. In all other situations I believe Rogues should be king of the physical DPS to make up for their lack of group synergy.
A good DPS warrior is not a liability in any group, a shit DPS warrior (80% of the ones you will come across) a dead weight.
In my opinion Rogues should always be > Fury Warriors, but the cap shouldn't be DPS, the cap should be aggro. A fury warrior isn't a wasted slot, at least if you aren't after first world kills. Nihilum for example takes only one Warrior (MS specced) because he can DPS with WF (WF procs only on MH, so it's better for 2H then for DW) Totem and because of the 4% Meleedamage Debuff.
In an all-out no threat static tank and spank fight, buffed, potted and correctly supported, I sincerely believe that a Fury Warrior should and could out-damage a similarly geared and skilled Rogue.
Example of this is Aran. There fury warrior will outdps rogues, since it's a fight with endless rage, threat doesn't matter and there are no adds for rogue to blade flurry.
But even with rogues beating warriors in dps everywhere else, there's no real reason to not have 1 fury warrior in raid. Battle shout of +381 ap is quite a lot of raid dps in a melee group. More than the difference of rogue and fury warrior dps at least. And the warrior can function as and offtank, which are required in every raid.