Helot

One of the reasons that rogues benefit from haste so much is Combat Potency. As freakishly odd as it sounds, even .1 speed difference (base) is meaningful. ie. worth a 10-15DPS loss.

While the actual amount reduced is more for a slow weapon then a fast one, it doesn't mean it's better. I don't know the warrior/shaman classes well enough, but i've heard that shamans should be favoring slower OH weapons due to WF hidden cooldown being applied to all levels of WF. A slower weapon = less WF hits, which in turn = better chance that MH WF procs. Which means more damage.

In my opinion, Haste just means the same damage faster. If i can deal 1000 damage in 10 seconds, with 25% haste i should be able to deal 1000 damage is 7.5 seconds. If i have no rage/energy/mana, well it doesn't really matter how fast i deal damage if my maximum is always 1000/10seconds, eh?

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<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.

 

KYA1337

@Ounce:
Going from 131.3% attackspeed to 132.6% is not an increase of 1%.
132.6/131.3 = 1,00990099
So its a relative increase of 0.99%.
This discrepancy between the expected 1% haste gains and the relative increase in attack speed gets bigger the more haste rating you already have, therefor its diminishing returns.
Its actually exactly the same deal with Crit, Hit and AP.
In short on could say: "The more of one stat you stack, the weaker each further point of that stat gets, but only compared to the other stats you might get with the same statpoints."
Therefor on should opt to find a golden ratio of AP:Hit:Crit:Haste and try to stick to it.

@The Grog:
As stated above, haste rating has relative diminishing returns.
However, as it's a new stat and not yet overly used, i expect that the point at which 1 point of Hasterating will be worth less than 1 Hitrating, 1 Critrating or 2 AP cannot yet to be reached.

So "Get all the haste rating you can if you are melee." seems to be right for now, however this probably will not be true when people will have itemisation choices that sacrifice too many other stats for Hasterating.

 

Tinu

The math shown in this thread (post # 14) seems to indicate otherwise as the net benefit in stacking haste effects nets an overall gain in attacks.

 

• Ryjaek

This is not true, and I think it is the "myth" that most of the people here are trying to debunk. You will be able to do 25% more damage in the same amount of time, not in 25% less time. It is really in 1/1.25 less time, so you could do 1000 damage in 8 seconds, not 7.5, or you could view it as doing 1250 damage in your 10 seconds.

 

◊ Anias

Haste, on auto attacks, doesn't care about original speed - it's the same gains in damage regardless.

(If you'd like to prove this for your own eyes: Go make a chart of attacks per 100 seconds, then map out your weapons with no haste. Then map out your weapons with haste effects.)

Now then, haste does stack in a favorable way, making it better to stack it all up at the same time where you can, but that has little to do with weapon speed.

 

Ounce

You are saying two separate things here. The first is that you get less of an increase in attack speed the more haste rating you already have. While this is true if you look at it in terms of "percentage increase in attack speed", in terms of auto-attack damage (not including procs) each point of haste rating you add gives you the exact same amount of extra damage--regardless of how much haste rating you already have--which is actually what we care about when we talk about whether stacking something has diminishing returns.

Your second point is that all stats have diminishing returns in relationship to one another, which I think is a misuse of the term. I would talk about that more in terms of opportunity cost -- as you add haste, the value of haste stays the same, but the value of hit, crit, and ap goes up. I think it's key to make this distinction--extra haste will never have diminishing returns on auto-attack damage alone.

If you use a "percentage" increase as your metric, it will always appear to show diminishing returns for any of the base stats. Haste rating has a linear impact on (auto-attack) damage, just like AP. If you looked at the percentage increase you get in damage from adding AP, it would always look like there were diminishing returns past the first point.

There is a separate discussion to be had on whether there is a sweet-spot for haste in terms of its impact on procs (given a set amount of hit). Until that is modeled, though, I don't think we should be talking about haste in terms of diminishing returns, and classes that have on-use haste effects (who don't get haste capped) should stack them as much as possible to take full advantage of the attack speed multipliers they have available (Slice and Dice, Blade Flurry, Heroism in my case). Haste rating added when you have these multipliers up will give more damage than adding it when you do not.

 

l2tank

In 2h mace spec i currently can choose between having 30% crit and no haste rating.

Or having 26% crit but a 10% haste rating with BT hands and 2x devastation rings.

The question is: 9-10% haste rating on a 2h > 4% crit ?

Cheers

 

Kaber

It depends on a couple of things.

1) Is white damage where you get the majority of your damage?

2) Are your damage skills based on weapon speed, or is it mostly based on skills that are affected by the global cooldown? (Druids would not gain much from haste, for example)

3) do you have any talents, gear, or other effects that boosts the value of crit for your build?

 

l2tank

1) No. Majority of dmg comes for MS/Slam/WW, but more swings doesnt means more rage?

2) I mostly do, swing,ms,swing,slam,swing,slam, etc

3) 33/28 build with impale etc.

Doesnt more white hits mean more rage?

 

zeratulgr

Hm I would go for crit if I were you,since you actually have quite low crit.
Another reason is I dont like slam with haste items it just doesnt work since slam resets your swing timer making your haste obsolete at that time.
and on a scenario were you have flurry 15% speed + 10% haste from items +30% from BL forget about slamming you will hit so fast you will not be able to time it correctly.

So actually you have 2 options,get the haste items and abandon slam,if you always have a shaman and WF ofc,and try the alternative way of 2h dps,MS WW whenever able and spammstring for WF procs and perma flurry + HS ofc.

Else if you enjoy slamming and think it suits you crit ftw.

IF you abandon slam you will see majority of dmg will be white dmg around 40-45%

 

itch

So, with all that you guys know about haste now, what would be the typical attack sequence for a combat sword rogue while under maximum haste effects, for example:

>> slice n' dice + 2 piece assassination set proc + blade fury + abacus

Should I spam any specials at all during my haste time or should I just let the auto attack go so that I don't reset my GCD?

Thanks

 

Spades

What does the GCD have to do with your autoattack timer?

"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
-Rorschach, Watchmen

 

Borelgore

What exactly do you mean by reset your GCD with regards to autoattack? I believe it's already been said a few times, but again: using (instant) specials doesn't affect your autoattack at all, so while hasted you will lose dps if you for some reason choose to stop using energy and just white hit things.

 

itch

Alright, well I apologize for the dumb question. I'm still learning the mechanics myself. Let me ask a different question then. Would your attack rotation differ at all while you were hasted or would you continue to use the same attacks?

 

Cyn

Haste doesn't effect our yellow attacks, however in saying that, due to the added white attacks, with a combat potency spec, this can potentially mean additional energy coming in, and can compress cycles, or change optimal cycles entirely on where the procs happen during your usual cycle

 

Spades

I wouldn't start spamming backstab as a swords build (or the opposite) if that's what you mean.

As far as cycling goes, some times you get a CP chain that throws stuff out of whack, like getting 5 CP with 8-10 seconds left on S&D with a combat daggers build. My rule of thumb is to favor an active damage finisher (rupture of evis), since I can always go 1s-4s to get my cycle back under control.

"Existence has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long."
-Rorschach, Watchmen

 

Madlax

Going with the latest PRT update:
PTR: 15.7 haste rating for 1% haste for both casters and melee.
Melee damage going down.
Caster damage going up?

Quagmirran's Eye will boost a 2.5 sec SB to 2.0 speed.
2xRing of Ancient Knowledge + Bracers of Nimble thought will give 2.35 cast time SBs

 

erb

I also just noticed a post regarding the upcoming changes for melee/caster haste and they confirm the numbers you've posted.

WoW Forums -> THX FOR THE NINJA HASTE NERF

 

rochan

Is this considered an epic nerf? It's comparible to how George's Nefarian Thunderfury video got that weapon nerfed, and how all the Naxx DPS warrior videos got them nerfed. Blood Legion's WWS gets haste nerfed thanks to Furi and Lars =P

 

Madlax

I´d consider this a simple re-balancing.
Caster haste was, eventually too, good before they patched it up to 21.x.
Weird enough they left melee haste at the same value back then.
Now they fix it to be in line again - making it more useful for casters once again.

 

Natural

That's too bad. I think the melee nerf is a little overdone.

 

Wicken

I searched the thread and didn't see an answer to this question yet. For casters, haste rating is calculated before talents are taken into account much in the same way +helaing is. I can see this with my own spell haste gear. When Light's Grace pops I still have the same decrease in my holy light cast time as before.

 

Amorpheus

Light's Grace reduces your cast time by a fixed amount, not a percentage.

It seems silly that cast and melee haste should be entirely equal. Melee DPS is, in the "worst" case, around 2/3rds autoattack swings. Many caster classes spend all their DPS and healing time casting.

Going from 10,5 directly to 15,7 is a huge change. It won't be game-breaking, but it's definately enough to make a lot of people reevaluate item choices, and probably end up ditching some haste gear that wasn't a clear choice to begin with.

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"So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know."
"And what is that?" asked the man in black.
"I'm not left-handed."

 

Rasputin

Haste affects autoattacks always, and without any cap or lag. Spell haste affects only cast-time or channeled spells, is bound in the lowest case to 1.5s(making it useless for 1.5s spells), and must account for human error and lag to be effective; a 2.5s spell reduced to 2.4s doesn't help you if you have to account for lag and timing your casts. Any amount of haste increases your autoattack damage, which as you noted is quite a large chunk of your damage. You would need to stack enough haste for it to be within the bounds of human reaction time for it to be useful, as well as enough to make your /stopcasting macros safe to use.

If the new solution to /stopcasting allows some sort of uninterrupted chaincasting unfettered by network and human effects, then your point will be more valid. Until then, x% haste is still better for melee, in my estimation.