Here's diminishing returns in layman's terms:

If I have five apples and I buy one apple, I have increased my appleness by 1/5 = 20%.

If I have ten apples and I buy one apple, I have increased my appleness by 1/10 = 10%

This is what people are claiming equates to diminishing returns...

But the bottom-line is, I'm still getting ONE MORE TASTY APPLE.

Compared to say, 100 apples, getting one more apple doesn't seem that great, but you could have said the same thing when you had 99 apples, and the same thing when you had 98 apples... and as a result you would never have gotten to 100 apples. That's why despite *relative* diminishing returns, that isn't reason enough to stop stacking more and more of haste or mostly any other stat for that matter.

There are however other valid arguments in favor establishing a haste "cap" (primarily referring to Hunters).

Hey guys, with spell haste how much time is cut off of a spell at 1% spell haste. Does it differ for each spell you cast? For example, is the time cut off of casting Fireball less then if you're casting Pyroblast? Or are they the same?

One thing I noticed on the damage meters is auto attack will deal the highest single target dps on a melee class, I also noticed that achieving a perfect 1 to 1 haste to critical strike ratio will, in mathematical theory, out perform any other ratio.

I.E. Character sheet lists players auto attack damage at 300dps, with 100% hit chance. The player can gear him self to allow 40 percentage points towards haste and or critical strike chance.

Dps * haste * crit = Average dps dealt
Haste should be multiplied before critical because haste directly effects the dps on the character sheet but doesnt really matter because both the values are equal to on another, so as long they are multiplied by each other it will work.

Haste * crit gives you the multiplier of both combined.

10% haste * 30% crit is 1.1 * 1.3 = 1.43 multiplier to dps
5% * 35% = 1.4175% multiplier to dps

This shows a 1.25% difference in ratio = to 1.25% crit chance or haste percent

20% * 20% = 1.44 multiplier

The numbers are nearly negligible once you get over 10% haste.

Haste cant hold as much of a value up to crit chance because haste rating as no influence, that I can tell, on skills.
So all skills receive the bonus from crit but not haste. Skill dps * crit chance = average dps of that skill.

adding in attack power is different, what the equivalence in attack power, 1% haste or crit, based off of how much 'dps attack power' you have.
Weapon is the titan steel steel destroyer at 186.6 dps and 3000 attack power = 214.28 dps
186.6 + 214.28 = 400.88 dps * 14 = 5612.39999999999 AP
186.6 dps * 14 = 2612.4 attack power + 3000 = 5612.4 AP

400.88 dps * .01(1% crit) = 4.0088 dps
Thus 1% haste or crit chance is equivalent to 56 Attack power with a 186.6 dps weapon and 3000 attack power.
So sacrificing 100 attack power for 1.5% crit chance will not improve your average dps of your auto attack.

However, Most skills dont receive the the full benefit of attack power and only 25% of attack power is used, in which case for that skill dps was in this case dropped down 2 dps worth of attack power, to multiply the average skill dps by 1.5%.

For kicks Ill attempt to do a intermediate calculator to calculate the attack power value of crit.
1000 / 14 = 71.42 dps * .01 = .7142 dps * 14 = 10 attack power
1100 / 14 = 78.57 dps * .01 = .7857 dps * 14 = 11 attack power
1200 / 14 = 85.71 dps * .01 = .8571 dps * 14 = 12 attack power

To make it simple the dps worth of each crit, will be set in increments of 100 AP
100 AP = roughly .07145 dps of crit. (that's not the perfect average but close enough)

The formula is...
weapon dps * 14 + Attack power = Total attack power.
Total attack power / 100 = y * .07145 = x dps * 14 = attack power value of 1% crit

Test Run
My sword of a thousand truths = 392 dps and I have 7600 AP

392 * 14 + 7600 = 13088
13088 / 100 * .07145 * 14 = 130.9...1% crit is equal to 131 attack power

The big question is what is the perfect ratio between haste, crit and attack power for maximum dps.
I don't know if players can even manage to make auto attack a greater portion of there dps. I know rogue could specced combat with slice and dice in BC.

I f i were to give a crude summery, in my opinion on how to equip a dps class it would be...
Ratio lay out is (Haste to crit) I don't know how to include Total attack power in to the ratio..
Its hard to give exact figures because the higher ap get the more crit and haste you want, but if you sacrifice attack power for crit and haste, the maximum effectiveness of crit and haste goes down. And you end up with more of whats worth less.


Skill dependent players 1 to 3 ratio
Auto attack Players 1 to 1 ratio


Always shoot for attack power because it effects auto attack and skill damage, Every 100 attack power increases your the effectiveness of every 1% crit buy the equivalent to .07145 dps!

I dont know why i didnt think of this sooner, but if Crit chance can be related to the players attack power in some way, then it would only make sense that 1% crit is always a certain percentage of the players total attack power.

This allows for an easier calculator formula.

The titan steel destroyer at 186.6 dps, and 3000 AP was 5612.4 Total AP
1% crit was equal to 56 ap
56.12 AP / 5612.4 = .009999 so 1%

1% of your total attack power is how much 1% crit or haste is equal to

Looking back at my previous post, I didnt even think to divide the attack power instead of the dps, which is perfectly alright since both integers hold the same value. That was real dumb of me. All the numbers were even the same, just the decimal was moved, that was real dumb of me for not being able to link the reverences together.

I've been trying to think of ways to relate haste and crit to a characters total attack power when itemizing, naturally with someone would say just get as much attack power as possible, but with the gear available in the game, its easy to assume that one set of items will out perform another.

The problem is calculating hit rating into the formula, if an item loses 1.5% worth of hit rating when equipping a new item, then the whole formula still has to be multiplied by by the players chance to hit.

The only way I can think of to compare items is to take the attack power it gives * haste * crit * chance to hit once the item is equiped to calculate the items effective dps

Then you have items such as trinkets that will only have one stat such as the dark moon card with 90 strength

With an item with only 1 bonus, it has to be compared to the stats on the character sheet juxtapose with the stats of the other item.

dark moon card vs 90 crit rating trinket, in this case ill just round up to 2% crit. The math is is simple, it means you need at least 9000 'total attack power' for the critical trinket to even hold a candle light to the nobles trinket.

Remember
Total attack power is the dps of your weapon converted into raw attack power + the attack power on your character sheet.
1% crit is equal to 1 % of your total attack power.

Why not use the dps listed in the character sheet you ask?? Because that dps is caclulated after talents and I wasnt 100% sure if it would effect the numbers, or how it would effect the numbers to give false values. So this way I know nothing weird will take place before talents. And haste effect that dps directly.